Hebrews 6
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THE WHOLE HOLY BIBLE. 
And a alarming number of Church Fathers, including John's own Disciples, all made the same claim, when we see Jesus.
You and myself never saw Jesus, the human, nor God.
But we will only ever see Him as God.
and as God, He will be Perfection.
We've seen the Bible, and it paints us a Vague Picture of what we will see.
But When we see Jesus, it will be the Perfect we've been trying to see through the Bible.
You and myself never saw Jesus, the human, nor God.
But we will only ever see Him as God.
and as God, He will be Perfection.
We've seen the Bible, and it paints us a Vague Picture of what we will see.
But When we see Jesus, it will be the Perfect we've been trying to see through the Bible.
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We've seen the Bible, and it paints us a Vague Picture of what we will see.
But When we see Jesus, it will be the Perfect we've been trying to see through the Bible.
^
I presented this at a open denomination conference one time and you could hear the air exiting the lungs of those whose minds were tangled up in this Concept.
The truth literally takes the breathe away from ya.
No wonder the Charismatic realm is increasing. Those who discover Continuation is a fact, tend to jump into it kind of retardely at first and it looks like a train wreck. Can't expect anything else, they've been taught it means this so they go and try to do that to find out they just look stupid. but they get it right eventually.
But When we see Jesus, it will be the Perfect we've been trying to see through the Bible.
^
I presented this at a open denomination conference one time and you could hear the air exiting the lungs of those whose minds were tangled up in this Concept.
The truth literally takes the breathe away from ya.
No wonder the Charismatic realm is increasing. Those who discover Continuation is a fact, tend to jump into it kind of retardely at first and it looks like a train wreck. Can't expect anything else, they've been taught it means this so they go and try to do that to find out they just look stupid. but they get it right eventually.
"But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." It doesn't say sign gifts can't cease before then. Signs gifts always cease; they aren't meant to go on forever. God uses them at certain times for a specific purpose. They clearly have ceased for now. In the future they will return; most notably with the Lord's two witnesses in Revelation.
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Salvation was given, is given, and will be given, unto all who become saved on exactly the same basis regardless of timeframe, that is, that Christ was designated Saviour before the foundation of the world - there was/is no other way to salvation but through Christ's grace and faith. Do you see "was ordained before the foundation of the world"?
[1Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
God does not draw all mankind but only those whom He draws are those that He has obligated Himself to save, but we know that not everyone will be saved, ergo, it must be that not everyone becomes drawn nor saved. Do you see the "and I will raise him up at the last day"? That is the final act of the drawing and of salvation, but it pertains to those, and only those, who are drawn that will be of it.
[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The elect are those specifically chosen to salvation by God. For God to foresee and choose the elect based upon His anticipation of (their) yet to come actions and choices as you imply, would mean that God's foreknowledge was of the "what", not of the "who" - but election was of "who", not the "what". Do you see the "unto obedience" below? It does not say "because of obedience" but "unto obedience", meaning that those whom God chose were chosen UNTO obedience through the "sanctification of the Spirit" and the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ", and not chosen because God's expectation OF their obedience or behavior - God makes them obedient.
[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
No, "whosoever" is NOT an invitation to all - it means only the "who" that it was intended to be for, so, all do not become drawn because it was intended for all; that is, only His elect were those intended and drawn.
That verse could by itself be a standalone thread. Suffice it to say (for now), that belief in Him is given as a fruit of the Spirit from spiritual rebirth, which rebirth, comes with salvation. True belief comes not of man but of God.
The "barrier" is in mankind's sin, which sin, Adam, Eve and Satan caused. That God chose to save anyone,
given no one deserves salvation, is a testament to His mercy and grace. God placed Himself under obligation only to save those He desired to save, since He, Himself, alone made payment in full for that sin - a sin which we all commit. It is/was God's divine prerogative and good pleasure to save whomever He so chose, and we, as the guilty, cannot demand explanation from Him as to those choices. Instead, we should just be thankful that anyone becomes saved, and that He did not choose to punish mankind in its entirety which we would richly deserve.
[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
In the below, notice how Paul characterizes himself. He says of himself, that, "I am chief", not that "I was chief". In spite of him being so, God, nevertheless, chose Paul unto salvation.
[1Ti 1:15 KJV] 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
The keys to that verse are, (with your translation above) the "toward you" and the "any". To understand them, we must first find out who the "you" and "any" were that Paul was addressing. Paul explains this in two ways: first, in the preceding verse (3:8), we see that he characterized them as of the "beloved" - only the elect and the saved are the beloved of God; second, in the salutation of the book, (1:1 &3) confirming this, we are informed that it is addressed to those who have obtained "like precious faith", again, the elect/saved and not intended to everyone. Also notice that their faith (1:1), was obtained, not of themselves, but "through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ", who gave unto them "all things".
[2Pe 3:8-9 KJV]
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[2Pe 1:1, 3 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: ...
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
So, what I am trying to convey, that it is Christ alone who is Saviour in all possible ways, and as such, He alone
must be the one who also saves in all ways. Man is not, and cannot, even to the slightest degree, contribute to his own salvation - it must totally and completely be from God as a gift through His mercy and grace.
[1Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
God does not draw all mankind but only those whom He draws are those that He has obligated Himself to save, but we know that not everyone will be saved, ergo, it must be that not everyone becomes drawn nor saved. Do you see the "and I will raise him up at the last day"? That is the final act of the drawing and of salvation, but it pertains to those, and only those, who are drawn that will be of it.
[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The elect are those specifically chosen to salvation by God. For God to foresee and choose the elect based upon His anticipation of (their) yet to come actions and choices as you imply, would mean that God's foreknowledge was of the "what", not of the "who" - but election was of "who", not the "what". Do you see the "unto obedience" below? It does not say "because of obedience" but "unto obedience", meaning that those whom God chose were chosen UNTO obedience through the "sanctification of the Spirit" and the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ", and not chosen because God's expectation OF their obedience or behavior - God makes them obedient.
[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
No, "whosoever" is NOT an invitation to all - it means only the "who" that it was intended to be for, so, all do not become drawn because it was intended for all; that is, only His elect were those intended and drawn.
That verse could by itself be a standalone thread. Suffice it to say (for now), that belief in Him is given as a fruit of the Spirit from spiritual rebirth, which rebirth, comes with salvation. True belief comes not of man but of God.
The "barrier" is in mankind's sin, which sin, Adam, Eve and Satan caused. That God chose to save anyone,
given no one deserves salvation, is a testament to His mercy and grace. God placed Himself under obligation only to save those He desired to save, since He, Himself, alone made payment in full for that sin - a sin which we all commit. It is/was God's divine prerogative and good pleasure to save whomever He so chose, and we, as the guilty, cannot demand explanation from Him as to those choices. Instead, we should just be thankful that anyone becomes saved, and that He did not choose to punish mankind in its entirety which we would richly deserve.
[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
In the below, notice how Paul characterizes himself. He says of himself, that, "I am chief", not that "I was chief". In spite of him being so, God, nevertheless, chose Paul unto salvation.
[1Ti 1:15 KJV] 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
The keys to that verse are, (with your translation above) the "toward you" and the "any". To understand them, we must first find out who the "you" and "any" were that Paul was addressing. Paul explains this in two ways: first, in the preceding verse (3:8), we see that he characterized them as of the "beloved" - only the elect and the saved are the beloved of God; second, in the salutation of the book, (1:1 &3) confirming this, we are informed that it is addressed to those who have obtained "like precious faith", again, the elect/saved and not intended to everyone. Also notice that their faith (1:1), was obtained, not of themselves, but "through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ", who gave unto them "all things".
[2Pe 3:8-9 KJV]
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[2Pe 1:1, 3 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: ...
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
So, what I am trying to convey, that it is Christ alone who is Saviour in all possible ways, and as such, He alone
must be the one who also saves in all ways. Man is not, and cannot, even to the slightest degree, contribute to his own salvation - it must totally and completely be from God as a gift through His mercy and grace.
All of these verse-replies, seem to point to OSAS, but there are so many verses that still say, "beware / danger / warning!". So it seems circular in argument again. God is not the author of confusion, but this is not simple and plain to read and understand as is shown so far. How is anyone supposed to have unity in the "truth" with this? I think love is the only unity point available with clarity, but a doctrine to agree on is not "clearly not for debate" because we all know it, and it cannot be argued against.
It seems the only parts we can agree on are, Jesus Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, went to heaven, and we are to believe that he pays for all, and believe it until death.
Anything else like losing salvation or not, is not clear to me. Other than if we stop believing and forget and sin etc, willfully or ignorantly etc, if we can lose it. But we may not be able to.
It seems the only parts we can agree on are, Jesus Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, went to heaven, and we are to believe that he pays for all, and believe it until death.
Anything else like losing salvation or not, is not clear to me. Other than if we stop believing and forget and sin etc, willfully or ignorantly etc, if we can lose it. But we may not be able to.
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Most people know Jesus will not lose any that the father sends him. And with regard to election, it is not salvation or the hebrews who were called the "elect" who did Baal worship, or who put their children through the fire, or other, even the ones destroyed by God, would be in heaven. That was the point. It makes no sense to have them in heaven, unless all elect are saved too. I don't think it matters at this point but thanks for the reply.
Warnings serve as edification to those saved and to those unsaved. The question then is who will heed them, who won't, and why?
For those saved, because they are saved, the warnings that pertain to salvation itself, with God dwelling within and moving/guiding them, (such as with faith in the Christ as Saviour), they will never desire to violate them. As for other warnings,
our growth in them is a continuing process that lasts throughout our lifetimes. For the unsaved, those warnings will not find
place withing them and they will be ignored. The significant thing is that for those who are saved they realize that their knowledge/faith of Christ and the keeping of doctrine has come about from their salvation and did not bring them to salvation. With the unsaved, it is the reverse.
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
For those saved, because they are saved, the warnings that pertain to salvation itself, with God dwelling within and moving/guiding them, (such as with faith in the Christ as Saviour), they will never desire to violate them. As for other warnings,
our growth in them is a continuing process that lasts throughout our lifetimes. For the unsaved, those warnings will not find
place withing them and they will be ignored. The significant thing is that for those who are saved they realize that their knowledge/faith of Christ and the keeping of doctrine has come about from their salvation and did not bring them to salvation. With the unsaved, it is the reverse.
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
that’s true So is this
“
Paul Paul to the Ephesians church after three years teaching them in person
“and how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.”
Acts 20:20-21, 27, 31-32 KJV
Paul to the Ephesians later in his epistle
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 KJV
this warnings you notice in every epistle mean what they say brother
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
this isnt saying “ you’ll still inherit but it’s just a lesson it’s saying you won’t have any inheritance or part in Gods eternal kingdom
you've noticed both sides of the message many will not see it and accept it we’re given a sure promise of a precious gift , but we can also squander it on sinful living if we dont take it seriously and always reject the warnings like this
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:12-13 KJV
We still have to follow the lords word and repent of sin grace isn’t so we can keep sinning and say we’re saved but it made a way for us to be saved if we believe the gospel
1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
that’s true So is this
“
Paul Paul to the Ephesians church after three years teaching them in person
“and how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.”
Acts 20:20-21, 27, 31-32 KJV
Paul to the Ephesians later in his epistle
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 KJV
this warnings you notice in every epistle mean what they say brother
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
this isnt saying “ you’ll still inherit but it’s just a lesson it’s saying you won’t have any inheritance or part in Gods eternal kingdom
you've noticed both sides of the message many will not see it and accept it we’re given a sure promise of a precious gift , but we can also squander it on sinful living if we dont take it seriously and always reject the warnings like this
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:12-13 KJV
We still have to follow the lords word and repent of sin grace isn’t so we can keep sinning and say we’re saved but it made a way for us to be saved if we believe the gospel
Also note the "we" in Hebrews 3:14 could mean "believers" in general, whether past, present, or future, such as here
Ephesians 4:13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
And thus with "are made" or "become" could mean that believers, whether past present or future, are necessarily made partakers in Christ as a result of holding fast until the end
which would explain why there are other strikingly similar verses that seem to indicate a reward for holding on to confidence rather than our end confidence merely confirming that we will receive a reward.
Hebrews 6:11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Hebrews 10:35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
Let's grant that those who are not in God's "will" will not inherit His Kingdom.
Invalid, as they could have been in His will before and were taken out, hence the warning to
Galatians 5:21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
"you" meaning
Galatians 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4: 6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
It is obviously unnecessary to warn them if they could not have chosen to practice such things.
if not then please explain what "warn" and "you" meant specifically
Ephesians 1:5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
being adopted, redeemed, or forgiven at some point does not necessarily prevent you from choosing, at some later point, to practice these things
Galatians 5:19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
As similarly noted earlier.
Being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise is mentioned conjunctively with being forgiven, etc. and is stated as, presumably, the result of
Ephesians 1:13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed
Not the other way around, if that is what you mean by "sealed".
Ephesians 4:13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
And thus with "are made" or "become" could mean that believers, whether past present or future, are necessarily made partakers in Christ as a result of holding fast until the end
which would explain why there are other strikingly similar verses that seem to indicate a reward for holding on to confidence rather than our end confidence merely confirming that we will receive a reward.
Hebrews 6:11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Hebrews 10:35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
Let's grant that those who are not in God's "will" will not inherit His Kingdom.
Invalid, as they could have been in His will before and were taken out, hence the warning to
Galatians 5:21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
"you" meaning
Galatians 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4: 6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
It is obviously unnecessary to warn them if they could not have chosen to practice such things.
if not then please explain what "warn" and "you" meant specifically
Ephesians 1:5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
being adopted, redeemed, or forgiven at some point does not necessarily prevent you from choosing, at some later point, to practice these things
Galatians 5:19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
As similarly noted earlier.
Being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise is mentioned conjunctively with being forgiven, etc. and is stated as, presumably, the result of
Ephesians 1:13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed
Not the other way around, if that is what you mean by "sealed".
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contingent_will
(not an endorsement of everything on the website)
(not an endorsement of everything on the website)