Faith Obeys The Word

John146 · Jun 10, 2023

When did the new testament begin? With the death of the testator? Before the cross, Jesus was declaring that he was their promised Messiah ready sent to restore the kingdom of Israel and deliver them from their enemies. The cross was a hidden mystery until after it occurred.

In the body of Christ, there is no more Jew or Greek, for we are all on in Christ. To designate the letter of James to Jewish Christians separates the body of Christ and is contradictory in nature.

Cameron143 · Jun 10, 2023

John146 said:

I see. Well let's address them.
1. James isn't saying anything different than Paul...they are merely looking at the subject from different angles. Paul is addressing the process of salvation so is keen to show that it is not based on works. James is addressing the issue of faith being genuine. So he addresses it from a works perspective.
Read Ephesians 2:10. Paul is well aware that works attend genuine salvation.
The 2 are merely discussing different aspects of salvation.
2. The rich aren't being condemned. They are being instructed. The Bible is full of wealthy men and since every good and perfect gift is from God, it is God Himself that made them so. But caution is given to the wealthy not to trust in their riches or to be poor towards God.
3. Why don't you believe the Jewish time of trouble was during the first century?
4. Why do you believe anointing oil and prayers are ineffective?
5. Didn't God judge the nations, particularly Israel, in the 1st century?

Cameron143 · Jun 10, 2023

John146 said:

Your understanding of some biblical terms and dispensations has led to some error on your part. I wish I could help further but as long as you hold to certain beliefs, my explanations will not fit for you.
Grace and peace.

John146 · Jun 10, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Thanks for responding.

1. James is answering the question, "Can faith save him?" Paul says yes. James is saying no, but works is a part of it. James is not answering the question, "Will works follow salvation?"

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Believers should go onto good works, but unfortunately, some do not. If obedient, we would live a life of good works, pleasing to the Lord. Our labor will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. Rewards are at stake, not salvation.

2. Every mention of the rich is negative.

James 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
James 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
James 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. A warning to those Jews who have sold out to the anti-christ and become rich and more than likely have taken the mark.

3. At the end of the time of Jacob's trouble, the tribulation, Jesus returns and sits upon the throne of his glory judging the nations.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

4. No I don't. Does God still heal? Yes, but not through the laying on of hands and the anointing of oil. Signs will be active once more during the time of Jacob's trouble. Jews believe through signs. And notice the wording:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Not might, shall save the sick...every time! Furthermore, their sins were forgiven by the laying on of hands.

5. The Lord will judge the nations at his return. They will be judge according to their treatment of his physical people Israel. See again Matthew 25:31 on...

John146 · Jun 10, 2023

Cameron143 said:

That is your opinion, I believe it has brought me many answers that people struggle with because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth. The bible has divisions that must be understood or one will get their doctrines confused.

Cameron143 · Jun 10, 2023

John146 said:

Your understanding of scripture has led you to believe that Jews can only be saved by faith plus works. That's not my opinion, but your stated belief. If I am wrong, please let me know.
And if that is your belief, it should give you pause. Only 1 person has ever been able to keep the law. What makes you think more attempts to do so will have any different results?

Pilgrimshope · Jun 10, 2023

Cameron143 said:

amen just wanted to support this part with scripture the messiah was always for everyone israel first and then everyone else

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; that thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6-10‬ ‭

gentiles are included in the covenant Jesus made with israel in the gospel it isn’t a different covenant

“how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gentiles now get to partake in the covenant wheras before they could not

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-16, 18-22‬ ‭

same body , same lord , same gospel

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at the end of Paul’s life still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to all like Jesus said to do

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭

It’s the silliest thing to argue that because James had written a letter to the Jewish believers , it then becomes irrelevant and not true for gentile believers who are part of the same body , share in the same spirit , believe the same doctrine , attain the same promises and have the same God whom made the same way for all

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

amen just wanted to support this part with scripture the messiah was always for everyone israel first and then everyone else

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; that thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6-10‬ ‭

gentiles are included in the covenant Jesus made with israel in the gospel it isn’t a different covenant

“how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gentiles now get to partake in the covenant wheras before they could not

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-16, 18-22‬ ‭

same body , same lord , same gospel

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at the end of Paul’s life still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to all like Jesus said to do

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭

It’s the silliest thing to argue that because James had written a letter to the Jewish believers , it then becomes irrelevant and not true for gentile believers who are part of the same body , share in the same spirit , believe the same doctrine , attain the same promises and have the same God whom made the same way for all

My question to you is, has the gospel of the kingdom been preached in all the world? What happens when this happens? See Matthew 24:14 as you posted.

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

In light of Revelation 14 and it’s future intent, who are these saints mentioned?

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

amen just wanted to support this part with scripture the messiah was always for everyone israel first and then everyone else

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; that thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6-10‬ ‭

gentiles are included in the covenant Jesus made with israel in the gospel it isn’t a different covenant

“how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gentiles now get to partake in the covenant wheras before they could not

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-16, 18-22‬ ‭

same body , same lord , same gospel

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at the end of Paul’s life still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to all like Jesus said to do

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭

It’s the silliest thing to argue that because James had written a letter to the Jewish believers , it then becomes irrelevant and not true for gentile believers who are part of the same body , share in the same spirit , believe the same doctrine , attain the same promises and have the same God whom made the same way for all

Is this describing the body of Christ? James 4…

Ye lust…
Ye kill…
Ye fight…
Ye war…
Ye adulterers…
Ye adultresses…

Cameron143 · Jun 11, 2023

John146 said:

No one said there wouldn't be works. There most assuredly will be. The rest that is pictured is the rest they have in Christ. They have works because they love Christ. But they aren't trusting in their works for salvation. They are trusting in the work of Jesus--His perfect life as their righteousness and His death as payment for their sins.

We don't do works because we are seeking salvation. We are saved so we do works. They are acts of worship.

Read Ephesians 2:8-10 again. Salvation precedes works.

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

These tribulation saints keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. They must endure to the end for their salvation into the thousand year kingdom of Christ. They must avoid the mark of the beast, avoid the lust of riches, and endure. That's never the command to the body of Christ. They are not working for eternal salvation, but rather, to endure into the earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ, the King of kings.

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

No one said there wouldn't be works. There most assuredly will be. The rest that is pictured is the rest they have in Christ. They have works because they love Christ. But they aren't trusting in their works for salvation. They are trusting in the work of Jesus--His perfect life as their righteousness and His death as payment for their sins.

We don't do works because we are seeking salvation. We are saved so we do works. They are acts of worship.

Read Ephesians 2:8-10 again. Salvation precedes works.

Ideally, works will follow salvation. But all do not get saved in an ideal situation.

Cameron143 · Jun 11, 2023

John146 said:

Salvation has never changed from the fall. It has always been by grace through faith.

Grace...Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord.
Faith...Abraham believed God...
Born again...Isaac was a supernatural birth after physical conception was possible.
God's faithfulness...regardless of Jacob's continual sinning and running, God remained with him.

Salvation in every time is by grace through faith. By works of the flesh shall no flesh be justified.

You are free to answer but I'm going to bow out now. I feel badly that I could not persuade you but I just don't feel any further discussion from my end will help.
I do appreciate the tenor of our discussion and the time you took to explain your position. Blessings.

GRACE_ambassador · Jun 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Precious friend, respectfully disagree, because:

Mat_15:24 "But He answered and said, I Am not sent

but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

So, I should see/interpret this as: "...I am not [ primarily ] sent but unto
the lost sheep of the house of Israel..."?

Similar to this, the 'baptismal regenerationists' have told us this [ from Paul ],
for the Body Of Christ, also should be 'interpreted/seen/changed' in like
manner:

1Co_1:17 "For Christ sent me not [ Only ] to baptize, but to [ Primarily ] preach
the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest The Cross of Christ should be made
of none effect."???

Does God "Approve" (2 Timothy 2:15) of these 'changes'?

Should we interpret these, or leave them as "they Are Plainly written," and then
Solve the confusion with The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, as seen in these
examples?

Basic Distinctions of prophecy and Mystery (1)
+
More Distinctions of prophecy and Mystery (2)

These are why I asked about the 'op': Which 'Words' to obey?

Those of prophecy To "the twelve tribes of Israel" Or:

Those of the Mystery To "The Body Of Christ"?

or "both" [ impossible ]?

Amen.

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Salvation has never changed from the fall. It has always been by grace through faith.

Grace...Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord.
Faith...Abraham believed God...
Born again...Isaac was a supernatural birth after physical conception was possible.
God's faithfulness...regardless of Jacob's continual sinning and running, God remained with him.

Salvation in every time is by grace through faith. By works of the flesh shall no flesh be justified.

You are free to answer but I'm going to bow out now. I feel badly that I could not persuade you but I just don't feel any further discussion from my end will help.
I do appreciate the tenor of our discussion and the time you took to explain your position. Blessings.

Salvation is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Cameron143 · Jun 11, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

Precious friend, respectfully disagree, because:

Mat_15:24 "But He answered and said, I Am not sent

but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

So, I should see/interpret this as: "...I am not [ primarily ] sent but unto
the lost sheep of the house of Israel..."?

Similar to this, the 'baptismal regenerationists' have told us this [ from Paul ],
for the Body Of Christ, also should be 'interpreted/seen/changed' in like
manner:

1Co_1:17 "For Christ sent me not [ Only ] to baptize, but to [ Primarily ] preach
the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest The Cross of Christ should be made
of none effect."???

Does God "Approve" (2 Timothy 2:15) of these 'changes'?

Should we interpret these, or leave them as "they Are Plainly written," and then
Solve the confusion with The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, as seen in these
examples?

Basic Distinctions of prophecy and Mystery (1)
+
More Distinctions of prophecy and Mystery (2)

These are why I asked about the 'op': Which 'Words' to obey?

Those of prophecy To "the twelve tribes of Israel" Or:

Those of the Mystery To "The Body Of Christ"?

or "both" [ impossible ]?

Amen.

Keep reading. John 10:16.
God doesn't reveal everything at one point.

Cameron143 · Jun 11, 2023

John146 said:

That's correct. And so it was with Adam. And so it will forever be.

John146 · Jun 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Adam believed on the shed blood of Jesus Christ? Show scripture, don't assume...
Noah believed on the shed blood of Jesus Christ? Show scripture, don't assume...
Abraham? Show scripture, don't assume...
Any OT saint? Show scripture, don't assume...
Nope...

The shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross was a mystery. Not one OT saint was looking forward to the cross of Christ. Not one. That's a false narrative to try and show OT salvation. Where my belief is that the OT saints were not saved. The believed the word of God, whatever that was for their given time period, and then demonstrated their belief through obedience. Upon death, they were kept safe in a place created by God, aka Abraham's bosom. When Christ died, he descended into Abraham's bosom and preached the gospel to those who were dead and set them free from their captivity. Those OT saints did not have what we have after the cross.

Cameron143 · Jun 11, 2023

John146 said:

The shedding of blood by God represents the future shedding of blood of Christ. This became the entire basis of the sacrificial system. The clothing given by God represents the righteous covering of Christ.
OT saints may not have known their redeemer's name but they were looking forward to Him the moment He was promised in Genesis 3.
How much they understood is open to debate. That they knew isn't. Even as far back as Job they knew. I know that my Redeemer lives.
He specifically calls Him...Redeemer. He anticipated a Savior.

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