Canada Encourages the Poor to Kill Themselves

[Eli1]

Well anyone can kill themselves at any time by various methods, so I am not sure what you are advocating for here?

I see no difference beween mental anguish and physical pain, both can be horrible so why do you advocate for one and not the other?

Well, I guess this is where the difference in thoughts comes from because I do see a difference between mental and the physical.
This is why I don’t allow someone who is “sad” to kill themselves but I will allow someone who is in constant pain for a disease like cancer for example to end themselves painlessly.

Now an argument can be made here that the mental overcomes the physical and I’m a firm believer of that because I know saints in history who have been tortured and overcame their pain due to their strong belief in God.
‘However, not everyone can achieve that high mental state, that’s why we need to be compassionate and give them a painless end.

 

[Sojourner414]

I never saw any sort of exception in the Ten Commandments listed.

Believe me, when the doctors wanted me to decide on taking my mom off life support after a heart attack left her brain-dead (lack of oxygen to her brain), I looked.

Hard.

 

[maxwel]

What does God have to say about this? I’m leaving this aside for the moment because then we will go into interpretations and philosophies that would get more confusing.

Im approaching this from a compassionate manner where I don’t want to see a loved one in pain which would be hard for them and for the rest of us watching.

Hey Eli,

I don't question your compassion, or your good intentions.

1.) However, I think we'd all agree that good intentions alone aren't enough to establish the "rightness" of a thing, as intention and outcome are not connected by necessity. Since they are not connected by necessity, then one does not have causal power to bring about the other.
(We could give many examples of this, how good intentions don't always bring about a "good" or even "moral" result. I'm sure you could think of some. But to get you started with the most obvious example: Hitler had good intentions to make Germany a better place when he committed genocide.)

2.) Since merely good intentions, or "compassion", are not enough to establish the "rightness" of a thing, and we can prove this... then we do indeed have to fall back to other metrics to establish "rightness."

3.) This is where we end up back in philosophy and theology. This is simply unavoidable when we're talking about a moral issue of such significance as ending a human life.

4.) It is indeed an issue of philosophy and theology, not merely compassion (good intentions). Good intentions are not a metric for "rightness", so we have to step back to something more foundational.


This is not debate... this is just a few thoughts to get the wheels turning.
God Bless.

.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, I guess this is where the difference in thoughts comes from because I do see a difference between mental and the physical.
This is why I don’t allow someone who is “sad” to kill themselves but I will allow someone who is in constant pain for a disease like cancer for example to end themselves painlessly.

Now an argument can be made here that the mental overcomes the physical and I’m a firm believer of that because I know saints in history who have been tortured and overcame their pain due to their strong belief in God.
‘However, not everyone can achieve that high mental state, that’s why we need to be compassionate and give them a painless end.

Here are the reasons assisted medical suicide is wrong and should not be legal:

1) Doctors have many ways to manage pain, so does the body when it nears death
2) Doctors have been and will continue to be wrong on how long a person has to live.
3) Level of pain/tolerance and quality of life are subjective, there can never be a standard of care or one size fits all, each patient is unique
4) Insurance companies have been known to deny coverage for life saving and life extending treatment based on the fact that assisted suicide is legal
5) Doctors do not have the authority to terminate life, it is against their medical ethics

And for a Christian we are called to pray, have faith and give glory to God in all our circumstances.

 

[Eli1]

Here are the reasons assisted medical suicide is wrong and should not be legal:

1) Doctors have many ways to manage pain, so does the body when it nears death
2) Doctors have been and will continue to be wrong on how long a person has to live.
3) Level of pain/tolerance and quality of life are subjective, there can never be a standard of care or one size fits all, each patient is unique
4) Insurance companies have been known to deny coverage for life saving and life extending treatment based on the fact that assisted suicide is legal
5) Doctors do not have the authority to terminate life, it is against their medical ethics

And for a Christian we are called to pray, have faith and give glory to God in all our circumstances.

Yes, all of these are valid and legitimate reason which I don’t disagree with.
This is simply a discussion on when a patient doesn’t fit any of those but I know what you’re saying and you’re again approaching this from a political point of view or a point of view where everyone is evil.
This is simply an option where someone who could be a family member says that they don’t want to suffer no more from the pain when no other option is available. This is where I’m trying to get at.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, all of these are valid and legitimate reason which I don’t disagree with.
This is simply a discussion on when a patient doesn’t fit any of those but I know what you’re saying and you’re again approaching this from a political point of view or a point of view where everyone is evil.
This is simply an option where someone who could be a family member says that they don’t want to suffer no more from the pain when no other option is available. This is where I’m trying to get at.

Doctors can manage pain so there are always other options.

 

[Eli1]

Hey Eli,

I don't question your compassion, or your good intentions.

1.) However, I think we'd all agree that good intentions alone aren't enough to establish the "rightness" of a thing, as intention and outcome are not connected by necessity. Since they are not connected by necessity, then one does not have causal power to bring about the other.
(We could give many examples of this, how good intentions don't always bring about a "good" or even "moral" result. I'm sure you could think of some. But to get you started with the most obvious example: Hitler had good intentions to make Germany a better place when he committed genocide.)

2.) Since merely good intentions, or "compassion", are not enough to establish the "rightness" of a thing, and we can prove this... then we do indeed have to fall back to other metrics to establish "rightness."

3.) This is where we end up back in philosophy and theology. This is simply unavoidable when we're talking about a moral issue of such significance as ending a human life.

4.) It is indeed an issue of philosophy and theology, not merely compassion (good intentions). Good intentions are not a metric for "rightness", so we have to step back to something more foundational.


This is not debate... this is just a few thoughts to get the wheels turning.
God Bless.

.

Okay, i completely get what you're saying here and these are very valid points for which i have nothing to say. We know that God is the way and the Truth however, then we also need to consider if are we really representing God (to be His ambassadors) or representing ourselves and our egos.

One way to illustrate this would be by asking the questions:

Why do Christian elevate a sin over another? What do we gain from this? Is this even Biblical?
How does this make any sense when we exist in a fallen world where Death exists due to original sin? So when we're all sinful, why are we elevating things like abortion, assisted suicide, trans etc over others?

Is this our ego or God?

 

[Eli1]

Doctors can manage pain so there are always other options.

If pain is managed, then no assisted suicide, i completely agree here.
I am just leaving this option open in the case where medications can't manage pain anymore.
It's a humane thing to do, is what i'm saying.

 

[HeIsHere]

If pain is managed, then no assisted suicide, i completely agree here.
I am just leaving this option open in the case where medications can't manage pain anymore.
It's a humane thing to do, is what i'm saying.

The thing is this @Eli1 pain is a part of life, if it is humane in one situation it can be humane in many situations because we have no objective standard by which to when pain is no longer tolerable for the individual.

It is humane to save a life, never to end a life that is the antithesis of humane.
It is immoral.
Nothing good comes from acts of immorality.

 

[Eli1]

The thing is this @Eli1 pain is a part of life, if it is humane in one situation it can be humane in many situations because we have no objective standard by which to when pain is no longer tolerable for the individual.

It is humane to save a life, never to end a life that is the antithesis of humane.
It is immoral.
Nothing good comes from acts of immorality.

I am in general agreement with you here however i think we have the half-glass kinda empty or full point of view differences which make us see this topic from different angles.
For example i see technology as a way to improve the human condition, while realizing that it will be used for evil too. This is the state of the human condition, we invent something good which is then used for evil.
But my initial reaction is "use whatever means necessary to help with suffering".
And of course i know that the ultimate way for me to the question of suffering would be Jesus and belief in God, but others may not share this idea.

 

[HeIsHere]

I am in general agreement with you here however i think we have the half-glass kinda empty or full point of view differences which make us see this topic from different angles.
For example i see technology as a way to improve the human condition, while realizing that it will be used for evil too. This is the state of the human condition, we invent something good which is then used for evil.
But my initial reaction is "use whatever means necessary to help with suffering".
And of course i know that the ultimate way for me to the question of suffering would be Jesus and belief in God, but others may not share this idea.

Fair enough, but we are called to be a light/salt in the world.

If the world pursues the legalization of something harmful to the greater societal good it is our job/role to sound the warning alarm.

I understand your heart is in the right place, and believe me I have had the situation of horrific bodily pain but never did I feel justified in killing myself, I would never send that message to my family and friends.

As Christians we always defend the sanctity of life in utero to the last breathe.

 

[ZNP]

I think we should emphasize that no one is suggesting that there is a financial motive here to kill people. Sure, in a country like Canada that cares so much for their citizens that they have universal healthcare there would be a financial benefit to killing people who are old and infirm. But no one has in any way insinuated that this is a cost cutting program.

 

[PennEd]

This is the logical end of assisted suicide: