water baptism in Jesus' Name.

[Ted01]

I saw that you took your "x" off the table. Going to put it on again now that I posted this?

Must be the reason you thought it was "funny".

I "un-did" the "x" that I put on because I was acting on my carnal nature... striving against men who are opposed to the truth.

I laughed because your dishonesty seems to know no bounds.

 

[mailmandan]

You should be more specific. Because if you cannot be specific about what is un-Christ-like about my posts, then I think that you are just trying to make a general statement that cannot be disputed for that there is no frame of reference to determined whether or not the behaviour was Christ-like or not; it cannot be judged because the specifics have not been mentioned.

Your straw man argument below implies that I am taking away from God's word, which is dishonest and not Christ-like.

Have you taken your scissors and cut Acts 2:38-39 out of your Bible yet? ]You really should do to your Bible physically what you have done to it in your heart. Just remember what it says in Revelation 22:18-19.

Just because I don't agree with your interpretation of Acts 2:38-39 does not mean that I plan on cutting those verses out of the Bible.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus will confess you before His Father and the angels if you confess Him before men...is that not salvation?

And yes, baptism in Jesus' Name is a confession, to the uttermost, of Jesus Christ before men.

No turning back.

I can confess Christ without being baptized

Your Logic is a fallacy argument.

We confess Christ because of gratitude that he SAVED US.. not so we can be saved..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm sorry but I was going by what you said; that the concept was not in chapter 3 of John.

You were clearly mistaken on that.

And verses 22-26 are clearly in the immediate context of John 3:3-5; being in the same chapter.

Well your wrong. Because 22 through 26 occurred AFTER Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to be born again, in where he did not mention baptism

When Moses lifted the serpent on the rod. Did people have to get baptized to be saved? No. they were saved because they had faith

which is exactly what Jesus said

He who BELIEVES is not condemned

No baptism period (although baptism does occure. the baptism of the spirit)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I go by the English because I believe that God preserves His unadulterated message in the English.

God wopuld not contradict himself. and the English text can not go again what the original autograph says. because it would be contradictory.

The original manuscripts have been lost to us. Therefore it is a mistake to attempt to rely on the Greek.

Its a huge mistake to rely on english. which is a flawed language..

once again, the english can not contradict the greek. or else it is in error

God kept his word.. that why for years and years they had scribes to transcribe the word

 

[mailmandan]

Please expound on this a little bit more. How does your statement mean that baptism in Jesus' Name is not necessary for salvation, when you compare Acts 2:39 to Romans 8:30. Is the "effectual call" narrower or broader than the "general call"? And since it is narrower, I assume you are saying that Acts 2:39 is referring to the broader "general call". Therefore, since Romans 8:30 is speaking of a narrower call, which is included within the broader call of Acts 2:39, it follows that in Romans 8:30, those who are called and therefore justified are indeed among those who are defined as "as many as the Lord our God shall call" in Acts 2:39. And therefore if one is not called in the narrower call of Romans 8:30, they also are not called in the broader call of Acts 2:39. And therefore my contention stands, that:

Those who are not called are not justified and have not been predestinated; and that salvation is promised as a conditional promise in Acts 2:38-39 to "as many as the Lord our God shall call".

Neither Acts 2:39 or Romans 8:30 teach that baptism in Jesus' name is absolutely necessary for salvation. In regards to the general call, Matthew 22:14 - Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached.

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective, 2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Romans 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Revelation 17:14; in Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Romans 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. There is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called.

Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

At least give the right reference when you are referencing scripture.

Acts 2:38-39 does in fact speak of a conditional promise given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

your right it does

when we read as written

repent and you will receive the gift of the spirit. and let every one of you (singular) be baptized on the account of the fact you received remission of sin.,

Thats what it says..

Peter did not tell them to do a work of righteousness to be saved..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Acts 2:38-39 is not the only verse that speaks of the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

It does not even speak of baptismal regeneration.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We need to see Acts 2:36-41 in context.

Acts 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, (at this point the believed) and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

If they were saved from their sins and received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, why does it say in verse 40 that they needed to yet be saved? Also, we see in verse 41 that they were not added to the church until they were baptized.

So, how do you arrive at the fact that they had already been saved from their sins and had received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?

God bless you,
Wayne

because they repented as peter commanded them

we know this because they recieved his word and believed

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

It does not say they were baptised THEN they recieved the spirit..

 

[mailmandan]

Well your wrong. Because 22 through 26 occurred AFTER Jesus told Nicodemus HOW to be born again, in where he did not mention baptism

When Moses lifted the serpent on the rod. Did people have to get baptized to be saved? No. they were saved because they had faith

which is exactly what Jesus said

He who BELIEVES is not condemned

No baptism period (although baptism does occure. the baptism of the spirit)

In regards to John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. Verse 22 is out of context with verse 5. What is still in context with verse 5 is verses 14-18.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

John 3:5.

esus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

please show me the word BAPTISM

do you even know what the word means? It appears not

Baptism is not even a native english word

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You interpret it incorrectly; because either you have not been baptized according to Acts 2:38 and want to believe that you are saved; or else you have been and want to believe that certain loved ones are saved apart from being baptized in Jesus' Name.

That is definitely a motivation for believing your false doctrine.

lol

I was baptized by God himself, I did nto commit blasphemy by attributing his work to a man.

I allowed a pastor to baptize me a year later.

 

[mailmandan]

We need to see Acts 2:36-41 in context.

Acts 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, (at this point the believed) and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. Nothing is mentioned here about them trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation, which explains why they still needed to repent and believe the gospel in that order.

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

If they were saved from their sins and received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, why does it say in verse 40 that they needed to yet be saved? Also, we see in verse 41 that they were not added to the church until they were baptized.

Those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized. So they were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43;47.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

So, how do you arrive at the fact that they had already been saved from their sins and had received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?

For the same reason the Gentiles did in Acts 10:43-47.

 

[mailmandan]

your right it does

when we read as written

repent and you will receive the gift of the spirit. and let every one of you (singular) be baptized on the account of the fact you received remission of sin.,

Thats what it says..

Peter did not tell them to do a work of righteousness to be saved..

Greek scholar AT Robertson stated: Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed “in the name of Jesus Christ” (εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου Χριστου — en tōi onomati Iēsou Christou).

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson authored Word Pictures in the New Testament. In his comments on Acts 2:38 he said, - “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. "My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.” The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

 

[mailmandan]

I want to make certain that as many others as possible will do what it takes to receive "remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost".

Yes, Spirit baptism is the reality; and it is absolutely promised to those who receive water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

I received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit and knew without a doubt that I had become born again several years ago on a Saturday night when I repented and received Christ through faith, prior to receiving water baptism on Sunday morning.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

You need to consider the totality of scripture and not stay hung up on a handful of pet verses.

 

[Wansvic]

Water is not mentioned in Acts 19:1-7...

Note the reference to baptism in the name of Jesus pertains to water. Being indwelt with the Holy Ghost is always recorded as a separate experience:

"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:5-6

"...Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:15-17


"...on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:46-48


Paul's water baptism: "...why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

 

[Wansvic]

You don't understand what a picture is? A symbol is not the reality, but is a picture of the reality. The remission of sins is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism. I'm not obsessed with water baptism at all. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture.

According to 1 Peter 3:20-21 baptism is the antitype that now saves us. An antitype is not a type. It is the real thing. And, yes, without Jesus' sacrifice baptism would be meaningless.

 

[WayneKCobb]

I don't know, I haven't been following this that closely. I just noticed what you said about antitype and commented on that. Do with it what you will.

So, baptism is the fulfillment of the type, and also saves.

Titus 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

We are not saved by good deeds. period. we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, not of works lest anyone should boast.

You can;t save yourself.

Their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. Nothing is mentioned here about them trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation, which explains why they still needed to repent and believe the gospel in that order.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*


Those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized. So they were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43;47.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

For the same reason the Gentiles did in Acts 10:43-47.

Dear Mailman,

Thank you very much for taking the time that you did to respond to my message. I would like to comment on the following which I copied and pasted here.


Acts 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, (at this point they believed) and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. Nothing is mentioned here about them trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation, which explains why they still needed to repent and believe the gospel in that order.

First of all, concerning the word "belief". When the King James Bible was being translated into English, they had a problem of translating the Greek word "pistis". Faith has no verb and so another English word was used for the verb (believe) and at times, unbelief (which is the noun for the verb believe) was used instead of "faith".

Secondly, I find no place in the New Testament where the word belief is defined as just "mental assent". Mailman, would you read through the following concerning hope, faith and works. I would like to hear what you think of this.

HOPE, FAITH, WORKS

What is Hope? We get hope when we receive knowledge and we trust that this knowledge is true. The knowledge we gained can be true or false, but nevertheless, people do trust in the knowledge (true or false) and thus have hope. So hope is trusting in the knowledge you have come to know.


How is Faith like hope and how is faith different that hope? Like hope, faith has trust in the knowledge that we have received whether that knowledge is true or false. Faith is different than hope. This is described in James 2:14-16, there are three levels of faith:

1. A dead faith - It has no works.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


2. A unperfected faith - It will obey God when God so commands us to do so The example given is Abraham in Genesis 15 and Abramam's faith was reckoned unto Abraham as righteousness. God knew that Abraham would obey Him.

Genesis 15:4-6 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

3. A perfected faith - It is a faith that has trusted in God and obeys God like Abraham obeyed God and went to sacrifice Isaac when God commanded him to do James 2:

James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Also, faith CAN be seen, and hope CANNOT be seen.

Matthew_9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

This also brings us to the fact that there are two different types of works:

Works of faith - 1Thessalonians 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of LOVE and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2Thessalonians 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,


An example of how our faith in God works is found in Colossians 2:12:

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Also, in the conversions in the Book of Acts, faith is NEVER in the Active Voice (something you do). We do not baptize ourselves. Someone else always baptizes us. They are doing the work.

Thank you for listening.


One more thing concerning Acts 2:38. Mailman, if you look at a Greek sentence, the words that modiefy a noun, the verbs, are rearranged so that when we read it in English, it is easier for us to understand. So, Mailman, if what you say concerning Acts 2:38 is true, would you rearrange the words so that it would say what you believe it to say. If what you say is true, how come in all the translations that I have ever seen, the translators have arranged it so that as we read it, we see that when we are baptized, we receive the forgiveness of our sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you, Mailman!

Wayne

 

[Wansvic]

I've told you a number of times. The previous verses are evidence of their faith. When they heard this...heard what? The gospel. Faith comes by hearing.
They heard and believed and so acted.. what shall we do? Repent and be baptized.
They believed, then responded. No different than Abraham. He believed God so he acted. No different than Noah. God told him of the impending judgment and he believed God and acted. And the same is true of anyone who gets saved. The word of God is made known, the individual believes God, and responds in repentance and obedience.

Yes, belief without corresponding action is dead.

 

[Niki7]

Sheeees back. lol

Oh for some time now water whirlie!