The Trinity...my take.

[Angela53510]

@Angela53510, instead of putting "X's" on my posts, why don't you put in your two cents?

Show how any of my doctrine in the OP is unbiblical and therefore heresy.

This is my challenge to you.

Sorry, I'm too busy getting in my garden in during the day! Still loads left to do, although the veggies are all planted.

I'm disabled, but I still love digging in the soil and plants. It's is hard on me, and hurts. When I come inside, I just want to rest.

If you really want to know about the Trinity, I can post some excellent scholarly books for you to read. If you just stop making up stuff, I'm sure you could find some excellent material yourself!

But if you keep posting nonsense, I will continue with red Xs. If you don't like red Xs, then stop posting unscriptural, wrong doctrine, ok?

 

[Ted01]

Because I know that I know that I know that I have the Holy Ghost; since I have fulfilled the condition of the promise in Acts 2:38-39, I would say that it is those who have not fulfilled that condition who would be off-base; since they have natural minds that cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.

As for me, I am willing to change my point of view in the instance that I am shown viable scripture that contradicts my point of view.

And also, even if I weren't open to change, wouldn't it be the only right thing to defend the truth against someone who, in your opinion, is preaching heresy?

Isn't that what Apologetics is all about?

That seems strange to me...

You have the Holy Spirit because you preformed a "work"... Scripture says that's not how we come to Salvation.

You have a point of view - and might be convinced otherwise by Scripture? See, I try to allow Scripture to outline my point of view, the opposite way that you do things.

Well, good luck with all that...

 

[evyaniy]

Sorry, I'm too busy getting in my garden in during the day! Still loads left to do, although the veggies are all planted.

I'm disabled, but I still love digging in the soil and plants. It's is hard on me, and hurts. When I come inside, I just want to rest.

If you really want to know about the Trinity, I can post some excellent scholarly books for you to read. If you just stop making up stuff, I'm sure you could find some excellent material yourself!

But if you keep posting nonsense, I will continue with red Xs. If you don't like red Xs, then stop posting unscriptural, wrong doctrine, ok?

Please post the book titles when you have some time. Or sum up what you learned from the books you studied in a few sentences that could inform us all.

Did any of the Scholars who authored the books recognize Psalm 119 as the Son's prayer to the Father for life and to live after giving His life to save us? That is a key question because if they did not recognize Psalm 119 as the Son's prayer, they are missing one of the greatest and revealing truths in Scripture that allows us to understand more. Even the Church fathers throughout history did not yet understand that Psalm 119 is the Son praying. So our knowledge has been incomplete to some extent all along.

 

[Ted01]

Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

If He is eternally begotten, then He is a God formed beside God; something that Isaiah expressly speaks against.

But if He is the same Spirit, and therefore the same Person, as the Father, then He is not another God formed beside Him; He is the same God.

I believe, as I related in the OP, that Jesus ascended to exist outside of time. So, in that sense, He is indeed eternal and was with the Father from the beginning.

However, scripture is clear that He was begotten / born at the juncture of Luke 1:35.

His goings forth are also from everlasting (Micah 5:2).

Didn't you accuse someone else of Morman teachings? Calling Jesus "a God" is very much a Morman thing.

 

[evyaniy]

That seems strange to me...

You have the Holy Spirit because you preformed a "work"... Scripture says that's not how we come to Salvation.

You have a point of view - and might be convinced otherwise by Scripture? See, I try to allow Scripture to outline my point of view, the opposite way that you do things.

Well, good luck with all that...

Please post the relevant Scriptures to benefit us all.

 

[evyaniy]

Why not make the thread a collection of the Scriptures that apply to the subject. Posted relevant verses through John chapter 8 earlier and will continue later. Not a single reply to those posts which were mainly the Son's Own words.

Post every relevant verse you can think of so the thread is a collection of the verses that address the question. Don't just post the verse Book. chapter and number. Provide the actual verse so others can quickly read it without having to look up a list of Scripture references. It may be a little work but could be worth it for everyone else too.

 

[ResidentAlien]

You have the Holy Spirit because you preformed a "work"... Scripture says that's not how we come to Salvation.

Obedience to the Lord in baptism isn't a work. Now, I'm not saying baptism can save us or even that baptism is the only condition under which the Holy Spirit can be given. I'm just saying if you had your way no one would be able to get baptized, pray, sing to the Lord, or even get out of bed in the morning since they're all "works."

 

[evyaniy]

If many books have been written on the subject and Churches and councils did Creeds to address the misunderstanding and confusion, wouldn't that mean there has been a point of contention from very early on? So present what you know and the Scriptures that brought you to that understanding so we can learn from each other. Or be satisfied thinking you are right but not explaining why. People are quick to call heresy without putting in much effort to correct any error. Bring Scriptures that address the questions. We may not all agree but the verses can be respectfully presented for your views. Then others can respond with their understanding of those verses.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

This is clearly an accusation without evidence.

I challenge you to write what you think the Trinity is; and we will see whether your version stands up to scrutiny as mine has.

(for no one as yet, in 156 posts, has been able to show how any of what I have written in the OP is unbiblical).

Her's will be Modern Day Version as well, not matching the Creeds like the other one. Clearly, today's trinity, means something completely different than its original meaning. I still believe the CREED over any Modern Day Viewpoint!

 

[evyaniy]

Obedience to the Lord in baptism isn't a work. Now, I'm not saying baptism can save us or even that baptism is the only condition under which the Holy Spirit can be given. I'm just saying if you had your way no one would be able to get baptized, pray, sing to the Lord, or even get out of bed in the morning since they're all "works."

Know of a young boy who died tragically while wearing a t-shirt that read "to live is Christ." The rest of the verse was not stated on the shirt. He had not yet been baptized because his parents did not consider him at the age of accountability yet but he was clearly a believer. Some churches may question His salvation because of lack of water baptism. His shirt spoke for him and answered the question with what was left unsaid.

 

[evyaniy]

Her's will be Modern Day Version as well, not matching the Creeds like the other one. Clearly, today's trinity, means something completely different than its original meaning. I still believe the CREED over any Modern Day Viewpoint!

and yet they had to do Creeds to address the question because it was a point of contention and misunderstanding from the beginning. Post the creed you adhere to. There are a number of them and some were written hundreds of years after He ascended. Or post Scripture to support the Creeds.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Give scripture to substantiate these statements.

Honestly, there are NONE!
But, one knows what they're trying to say here either way.
Still, it does not match the Creeds.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

and yet they had to do Creeds to address the question because it was a point of contention and misunderstanding from the beginning. Post the creed you adhere to. There are a number of them and some were written hundreds of years after He ascended. Or post Scripture to support the Creeds.

Same Essence. READ my Posts. You interrupted ME here! Do Your Homework to what I am discussing since you feel like you want to address me.

 

[Ted01]

Please post the relevant Scriptures to benefit us all.

The idea that we need to "work" for Salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is refuted by a host of Scripture that call on us to believe (too many to post):

Jn. 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Rom. 10:9 - Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Jn. 20:31 - But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jn. 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

1 Jn. 5:10 - Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.

Jn. 17:20-23 - I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Jn. 7:29 - Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Eph. 1:13 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Gal. 3:2 -
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:14 -
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I'm aware that there are also a lot of verses that show that water baptism was used - and I think that water baptism is an important part of obedience. However, it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit that's important, the thing that saves us -

Lk. 3:16 -
John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

and yet they had to do Creeds to address the question because it was a point of contention and misunderstanding from the beginning. Post the creed you adhere to. There are a number of them and some were written hundreds of years after He ascended. Or post Scripture to support the Creeds.

The Creed tells us that the Father/Son is the SAME ESSENCE: Modern Day claims they are SEPARATE, not SAME. Here is Their Meaning when they wrote the Creed:

same in being, same in essence', from ὁμός, homós, "same" and οὐσία, ousía, "being" or "essence") (ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί) with God, the Father:
The Greek word ousia, which is translated into English as “essence.” The essence of something is that which makes it what it is:

Everything Else is the Same, according to the 4th Century Creeds.
Some how Modern Trinity has changed from how it once was Defined as the SAME to now being defined as SEPARATE.

 

[Ted01]

Obedience to the Lord in baptism isn't a work. Now, I'm not saying baptism can save us or even that baptism is the only condition under which the Holy Spirit can be given. I'm just saying if you had your way no one would be able to get baptized, pray, sing to the Lord, or even get out of bed in the morning since they're all "works."

Well, of course it's a "work"... it's not just a mere thought or whatever. lol

I agree that works of obedience are a good thing... a command even... but none of that brings Salvation.

 

[Snacker]

Wow...a lot of naysayers...

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 16:9, For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

You had to know that was coming. Disagree with him and suddenly you’re a natural man unable to receive things from the Spirit of God. And he wonders why he gets banned.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Wow...a lot of naysayers...

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 16:9, For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

Apply that to yourself. It may just be that the "naysayers", are spiritual and you are not. Considering that you are espousing heresy against what the body of Christ has held for near 2000 years. Its you.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

You had to know that was coming. Disagree with him and suddenly you’re a natural man unable to receive things from the Spirit of God. And he wonders why he gets banned.

Oddly Enough, he theoretically presented the 345 AD Creed of Same Essence between Father/Son, and he is being called a Heretic. What he is saying is factually ALL in this very Creed but Modern Believers of the SAME DOCTRINE, claim he is incorrect and turning Scripture into a new meaning. Actually, it is Modern Day Trinity who has DONE that Very Thing, not Old School, Trinity Doctrine!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Apply that to yourself. It may just be that the "naysayers", are spiritual and you are not. Considering that you are espousing heresy against what the body of Christ has held for near 2000 years. Its you.

Oddly Enough, he theoretically presented the 345 AD Creed of Same Essence between Father/Son, and he is being called a Heretic. What he is saying is factually ALL in this very Creed but Modern Believers of the SAME DOCTRINE, claim he is incorrect and turning Scripture into a new meaning. Actually, it is Modern Day Trinity who has DONE that Very Thing, not Old School, Trinity Doctrine!