problem related to praying in tongues
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The strongest argument for the cessation of gifts offers I Cor 13:10 as prooftext as support, "but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away." However, two verses later, Paul the writer of 1 Cor, who had seen and heard Jesus speak to him, says, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." and the next verse, "And now, these three remain, faith, hope, love.." a different for of "now" is used, "nuni" where "arti" is used in the previous verse. Where arti indicates the immediate present, nuni indicates a present state distinct from what was before. Therefore, a valid assertion cannot be derived that faith hope, and love did away with the gifts.
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We see Dimly now following the Guidance of the Holy Spirit walking through sinful Eyes.
The Moment we Change and are able to see in a Perfect View and Viewpoint, the Truth about Who Our Lord and Savior will be revealed and we shall also know Him immediately as John 1:1, the WORD. And seeing that fulfills the Perfect to Come.
The Moment we Change and are able to see in a Perfect View and Viewpoint, the Truth about Who Our Lord and Savior will be revealed and we shall also know Him immediately as John 1:1, the WORD. And seeing that fulfills the Perfect to Come.
Yes I understand your position as I've read some of your responses. I am neither Pentecostal or Charismatic. You don't have to be either to experience spiritual gifts and that is a major mistake cessationists make.
As far as pushing tongues? I have never done that. The op is about tongues; so are my responses. Whatever an op is about is what I will try to follow, not withstanding all the rabbit holes a thread can go down
Not to offend anyone here, but I will never ever darken the door of a Pentecostal church again. My worst experiences with Christians can all be traced back to Pentecostals and I mean actual damage. As for Charismatics? While there are actually churches referring to themselves as such, at one time, if I remember correctly, it was simply meant for a Christian, non-Pentecostal, who believed the spiritual gifts were still valid and probably spoke in tongues.
I do not see a connection between James and what Paul says about tongues, one is a spiritual gift and the other is the human tongue which can and does set the world on fire. We are responsible for our words. I don't and never have faked anything. You can pray in tongues (silently) in any church or any place as you should be in control. The gift...any gift...should never control a person and there are plenty of videos on youtube where you see the opposite. Such as people jerking uncontrollably or head bobbing or shrieking. IMO, these folks might need some deliverance from demons as that is not the Holy Spirit.
We could have one very long chat over coffee but I really cannot get into everything here. But, the bottom line is that I firmly believe the gifts are real and tongues included. I also believe that much of what goes on in some churches is absolutely fake with everyone saying how wonderful they feel no matter how bizarre the goings on are.
I am thankful I was not raised in a Pentecostal church. I have or had actually, a family member who went sideways when she became involved with Pentecostals and she messed up the lives of everyone around her.
As far as pushing tongues? I have never done that. The op is about tongues; so are my responses. Whatever an op is about is what I will try to follow, not withstanding all the rabbit holes a thread can go down
Not to offend anyone here, but I will never ever darken the door of a Pentecostal church again. My worst experiences with Christians can all be traced back to Pentecostals and I mean actual damage. As for Charismatics? While there are actually churches referring to themselves as such, at one time, if I remember correctly, it was simply meant for a Christian, non-Pentecostal, who believed the spiritual gifts were still valid and probably spoke in tongues.
I do not see a connection between James and what Paul says about tongues, one is a spiritual gift and the other is the human tongue which can and does set the world on fire. We are responsible for our words. I don't and never have faked anything. You can pray in tongues (silently) in any church or any place as you should be in control. The gift...any gift...should never control a person and there are plenty of videos on youtube where you see the opposite. Such as people jerking uncontrollably or head bobbing or shrieking. IMO, these folks might need some deliverance from demons as that is not the Holy Spirit.
We could have one very long chat over coffee but I really cannot get into everything here. But, the bottom line is that I firmly believe the gifts are real and tongues included. I also believe that much of what goes on in some churches is absolutely fake with everyone saying how wonderful they feel no matter how bizarre the goings on are.
I am thankful I was not raised in a Pentecostal church. I have or had actually, a family member who went sideways when she became involved with Pentecostals and she messed up the lives of everyone around her.
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I think when it comes to some believing in "Spirit forced", & "If they don't want it it wont happen", we should never forget some very important facts:
1. In order to be used in the gifts, one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yes, everyone recieves the "gift" of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but not everyone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is a separate event.
2. H.S. baptized christians will still not manifest all the gifts unless: A. They must be yielded & submitted to the Holy Spirit. B. They have the choice to manifest the gift or not.
No gift can be manifested unless the Spirit gives utterance or empowerment to do so. Anything beyond this is faking & abusing the gifts.
1. In order to be used in the gifts, one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yes, everyone recieves the "gift" of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but not everyone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is a separate event.
2. H.S. baptized christians will still not manifest all the gifts unless: A. They must be yielded & submitted to the Holy Spirit. B. They have the choice to manifest the gift or not.
No gift can be manifested unless the Spirit gives utterance or empowerment to do so. Anything beyond this is faking & abusing the gifts.
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What about that pesky old "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" scripture? When you are baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit, that IS the spiritual baptism. That's the only way to reconcile that scripture with all the others.
The one baptism is the water baptism that Jesus commanded us to do.... the spiritual baptism is just that... an immersion into the Spirit of God.
The one baptism is the water baptism that Jesus commanded us to do.... the spiritual baptism is just that... an immersion into the Spirit of God.
So if someone prays in say Greek or something, and a German like yourself does not understand it, does it somehow negate that prayer?
There are such big holes in constantly saying what you say above, that a universe could squeeze through
There are such big holes in constantly saying what you say above, that a universe could squeeze through
The day of Pentacost on the empowering of the Holy Spirit. They said they were drunk.
Many things are done that are supernatural appear foolish to the unlearned.
Right. I know that But I was replying to wolfwint who insists we should always understand tongues. Does not matter how many many times you point out what Paul writes in I Corinthians. Those passages should be SPEEDBUMPS for those who are cessationists, but they just ignore them.
But I was replying to wolfwint who insists we should always understand tongues. Does not matter how many many times you point out what Paul writes in I Corinthians. Those passages should be SPEEDBUMPS for those who are cessationists, but they just ignore them.
Trying to see if people are alive here:
have you ever saw something so sinful and shameful you felt anger rising up inside you before you and your body were caught up to the same level?
God inside us sees what we see. It Angers Him, it hurts Hims way before we get it, but then we start getting angry or hurt about it ourselves. Speaking in Tongues is no different. When the Holy Spirit gives the Utterances, you just follow that leading.
have you ever saw something so sinful and shameful you felt anger rising up inside you before you and your body were caught up to the same level?
God inside us sees what we see. It Angers Him, it hurts Hims way before we get it, but then we start getting angry or hurt about it ourselves. Speaking in Tongues is no different. When the Holy Spirit gives the Utterances, you just follow that leading.
You left out that Paul legitimize the gift of tongues in church if there is a translator presence, both gifts are by the Spirit of God, through man (oops, mankind).
There is also a difference in the prayer language that is for every believe who is baptized in the Spirit and the gift of tongues which is a supernatural message from God.
There is also a difference in the prayer language that is for every believe who is baptized in the Spirit and the gift of tongues which is a supernatural message from God.
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