Baptism, the simple version.
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Your beginning quote of John 20 doesn't apply. It relates more to Mat 16 and 18, it not at all to this discussion.
And I'm not at all against baptism; In fact as stated before, I'm a 1000000% believer in it's necessity to be saved. I'm simply questioning the current day administration of it as relates to the bible. I've been a member of the coC for almost 50 years, but that doesn't mean the coC is infallible nor that I accept everything blindly. FYI, I like a capella singing but don't think it's sinful to use instruments for example. A slippery slope using instruments, yes, but sinful, no. It can and does lead to entertainment rather than worship. Yes, a slippery slope.
But back to the subject at hand. I've done some additional thinking and research. See below prepared text. Look: I'm struggling with this, but in sincerely looking at scripture and trying to understand how it is infallible and compliant with itself, I'm having a hard time reconciling Mat 28:19 and Acts 2:38 as others apparently are as well, and maybe have so been struggling for many years, but I know for sure that they are NOT in disagreement and we must figure out what they say and mean. Anyway, see below.
To my previous notes suggesting that we today, may be placing too much emphasis on the baptizer and what he says or doesn't say as relates to the process of baptism at the actual time of immersion, as opposed to the emphasis being on the one about to be baptized, and many being concerned that a baptism may be invalid if the baptizer doesn't say the appropriate words, I'll provide some other scriptural information and observation below for further consideration.
Although we today make reference to Matthew 28:19 and/or Acts 2:38 as guides to follow, one saying something different than the other causing confusion and controversy, and either one or the other being typically used at the time of baptism in somewhat of a ceremonial process being verbalized by the one performing the baptism, you'll find no record in the scriptures of any such thing occurring at the time of baptism or just prior to the actual act of the baptizer performing the immersion (baptism) of the new believer. Nowhere can be found a baptizer saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost", or, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ" or anything similar, or even, anything at all for that matter. What you do find is simply that the person or persons were simply immediately baptized.
Also, in only two instances recorded, you'll find that anything at all was said or required to be said relative to either of these 2 scriptures, and in both instances, it's the one being baptized that either says something or is told to say something. Those 2 instances are found in Acts 8 and Acts 22.
In Acts 8:34-38 below KJV, you'll see in verse 37 that upon believing, the Ethiopian eunuch confirmed his belief verbally in the presence of only Philip, by stating he believed "that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Immediately after that, verse 38 says he was baptized, immersed in water. Nothing else was recorded as being said by the baptizer, Philip, prior to the baptism. Note too this is also consistent with the requirement of Romans 10:9-10, that belief and confession are a necessary part of the salvation process.
"34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."
Romans 10:9-10
"9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
In Acts 22:6-16 below KJV, Saul (Paul) recounts his conversion which was initially recorded in Acts 9:3-19. And you'll notice what is said in verse 16 of this scripture. Upon Paul's belief, Paul was told to "be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord". ("of Him" 'autou', in the original Greek per the interlinear.)
"16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
So, it raises questions in my mind, such as, was anything more said by the baptizers of the bible unlike today? Was or is anything really necessary to be said by baptizers today? Does whatever is said 'incorrectly' or thought to be incorrect by baptizers today have effect on the validity of the baptism? Speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is silent. Is thus applicable here as well? Were the baptizers silent? Are we as baptizers silent today? Should we be simply immersing those who have heard the gospel, believed it, confessed their belief, and repented? It's a good question. Were the 3000 that believed as noted in Acts 2:37-42, immediately baptized by who knows how many baptizers, or was some sort of ceremonial words spoken before each as they were baptized? The scriptures don't say, but???
And I'm not at all against baptism; In fact as stated before, I'm a 1000000% believer in it's necessity to be saved. I'm simply questioning the current day administration of it as relates to the bible. I've been a member of the coC for almost 50 years, but that doesn't mean the coC is infallible nor that I accept everything blindly. FYI, I like a capella singing but don't think it's sinful to use instruments for example. A slippery slope using instruments, yes, but sinful, no. It can and does lead to entertainment rather than worship. Yes, a slippery slope.
But back to the subject at hand. I've done some additional thinking and research. See below prepared text. Look: I'm struggling with this, but in sincerely looking at scripture and trying to understand how it is infallible and compliant with itself, I'm having a hard time reconciling Mat 28:19 and Acts 2:38 as others apparently are as well, and maybe have so been struggling for many years, but I know for sure that they are NOT in disagreement and we must figure out what they say and mean. Anyway, see below.
To my previous notes suggesting that we today, may be placing too much emphasis on the baptizer and what he says or doesn't say as relates to the process of baptism at the actual time of immersion, as opposed to the emphasis being on the one about to be baptized, and many being concerned that a baptism may be invalid if the baptizer doesn't say the appropriate words, I'll provide some other scriptural information and observation below for further consideration.
Although we today make reference to Matthew 28:19 and/or Acts 2:38 as guides to follow, one saying something different than the other causing confusion and controversy, and either one or the other being typically used at the time of baptism in somewhat of a ceremonial process being verbalized by the one performing the baptism, you'll find no record in the scriptures of any such thing occurring at the time of baptism or just prior to the actual act of the baptizer performing the immersion (baptism) of the new believer. Nowhere can be found a baptizer saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost", or, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ" or anything similar, or even, anything at all for that matter. What you do find is simply that the person or persons were simply immediately baptized.
Also, in only two instances recorded, you'll find that anything at all was said or required to be said relative to either of these 2 scriptures, and in both instances, it's the one being baptized that either says something or is told to say something. Those 2 instances are found in Acts 8 and Acts 22.
In Acts 8:34-38 below KJV, you'll see in verse 37 that upon believing, the Ethiopian eunuch confirmed his belief verbally in the presence of only Philip, by stating he believed "that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Immediately after that, verse 38 says he was baptized, immersed in water. Nothing else was recorded as being said by the baptizer, Philip, prior to the baptism. Note too this is also consistent with the requirement of Romans 10:9-10, that belief and confession are a necessary part of the salvation process.
"34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."
Romans 10:9-10
"9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
In Acts 22:6-16 below KJV, Saul (Paul) recounts his conversion which was initially recorded in Acts 9:3-19. And you'll notice what is said in verse 16 of this scripture. Upon Paul's belief, Paul was told to "be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord". ("of Him" 'autou', in the original Greek per the interlinear.)
"16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
So, it raises questions in my mind, such as, was anything more said by the baptizers of the bible unlike today? Was or is anything really necessary to be said by baptizers today? Does whatever is said 'incorrectly' or thought to be incorrect by baptizers today have effect on the validity of the baptism? Speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where it is silent. Is thus applicable here as well? Were the baptizers silent? Are we as baptizers silent today? Should we be simply immersing those who have heard the gospel, believed it, confessed their belief, and repented? It's a good question. Were the 3000 that believed as noted in Acts 2:37-42, immediately baptized by who knows how many baptizers, or was some sort of ceremonial words spoken before each as they were baptized? The scriptures don't say, but???
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According to scripture, on the Day of Pentecost Peter told those who changed their mind and believed that Jesus was the Messiah that they still had to repent. This is evidence that changing one's mind is not in and of itself repentance.
Their willingness to believe Peter's message and act in obedience to the command to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is in fact what placed them into the body. (Acts 2:38-42)
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Acts 2:41-42
Their willingness to believe Peter's message and act in obedience to the command to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is in fact what placed them into the body. (Acts 2:38-42)
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Acts 2:41-42
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John 20:23 has nothing to do with baptism within the context of John 20:20-23 unlike the great commission as recorded in Matt 28 or Mark 16 and sounds much like Matthew 18:18, or Matthew 16:19
John 20:23
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Matthew 18:15-20 (see verse 18 in particular)
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
John 20:23
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Matthew 18:15-20 (see verse 18 in particular)
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I might be confused, but I don't see how the scriptures your reference apply to the account in John.
The great commission was Jesus sending out the disciples to baptize, and teach all that He commanded of them. (Matt. 28:19-20) In John 20:21, Jesus stated that as the Father sent Him, even so He was sending the disciples. He told them to receive the Holy Ghost. And referenced remitting sin. And the remission of one's sin takes place in obedience to the command to be baptized after an individual has first placed their trust in the shed blood of the resurrected Christ.
"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." John 20:21-23
The great commission was Jesus sending out the disciples to baptize, and teach all that He commanded of them. (Matt. 28:19-20) In John 20:21, Jesus stated that as the Father sent Him, even so He was sending the disciples. He told them to receive the Holy Ghost. And referenced remitting sin. And the remission of one's sin takes place in obedience to the command to be baptized after an individual has first placed their trust in the shed blood of the resurrected Christ.
"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." John 20:21-23
Granted the John scripture is a version of the great commission of Matt and Mark as noted but to assume this has something to do with baptism is a stretch since there is no text in John to say or even remotely suggest that. Even the wording doesn't suggest baptism is the means of sin remission as it infers selection not belief and faith being the basis for the selective remission.
I don't see the scripture as inferring selection. Rather, as a statement that those who believe the gospel message and are obedient to the baptism command have their sins remitted. Whereas, retention of sin is the result of rejecting the message. Jesus words, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved..." come to mind.
Also, I am reminded of Peter's comment to the Jewish Council concerning the Gentiles, Who was I to withstand God AFTER seeing God fill the group with the Holy Spirit. We know Peter's comment pertained to water baptism, because it was AFTER the indwelling of the Holy Ghost that he gave the command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And those of the council stated, that as such, God had granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles. (Acts 11) Important to note, is the fact that Peter could have barred Cornelius and others from receiving remission of sin by refusing to water baptize the group. Remember he asked the other Jews with him, Can any forbid these to be baptized? If someone had said yes, they would have been held accountable to God for interfering in His Will to remit their sin in accordance with the shed blood of Jesus.
Also relevant is that Jesus gave Peter the keys (plural) to the kingdom. Those keys have the ability to provide, as well as bar access to God's kingdom.
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:37-41
Also, I am reminded of Peter's comment to the Jewish Council concerning the Gentiles, Who was I to withstand God AFTER seeing God fill the group with the Holy Spirit. We know Peter's comment pertained to water baptism, because it was AFTER the indwelling of the Holy Ghost that he gave the command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And those of the council stated, that as such, God had granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles. (Acts 11) Important to note, is the fact that Peter could have barred Cornelius and others from receiving remission of sin by refusing to water baptize the group. Remember he asked the other Jews with him, Can any forbid these to be baptized? If someone had said yes, they would have been held accountable to God for interfering in His Will to remit their sin in accordance with the shed blood of Jesus.
Also relevant is that Jesus gave Peter the keys (plural) to the kingdom. Those keys have the ability to provide, as well as bar access to God's kingdom.
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:37-41
Where in the entire text of this event is there any mention at all of baptism?
John 20
19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
John 20
19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Truth can be ascertained when a specific word, such as baptism, is not recorded in a scripture. It is revealed through the study of all scripture relevant to the topic. A search shows obedience to water baptism by God's design, is the vehicle in which He chooses to remit sin of individual's who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. His sacrifice paid the price for All mankind. However, not all take hold of what He died to provide.
John the Baptist was appointed to introduce water baptism for remission of sin:
"Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." Luke 3:2-4
Scripture records water baptism is for remission of sin. (Mark 1:1-5, Luke 3:3, etc.)
Mark 1:1-4
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
After Jesus' resurrection, He said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. We know Jesus' prophecy pertained to Peter's message in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. It was the first record presented that repentance and water baptism was to be administered in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin.
John the Baptist was appointed to introduce water baptism for remission of sin:
"Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." Luke 3:2-4
Scripture records water baptism is for remission of sin. (Mark 1:1-5, Luke 3:3, etc.)
Mark 1:1-4
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
After Jesus' resurrection, He said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. We know Jesus' prophecy pertained to Peter's message in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. It was the first record presented that repentance and water baptism was to be administered in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin.
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Go back a bit further in Matt 18 to verse 15 and see the Greek in the interlinear. It's talking about forgiving the brother that sins 'hamartese' you. Read the entire text of Matt 18:5-22. Here it's discussing forgiveness of sins too, not by baptism. You're reading into this specific text something not there. As stated, the John text mentions nothing about baptism as the mechanism for sin remission here.
Also, by baptism, there's nothing that ever infers or suggests that it's the baptizer that is forgiving or remitting sins by the act of their baptizing someone, rather it's the Lord thar is the one through baptism into him. John 20;23 is totally in inconsistent with the principles if baptism for the forgiveness of sins. It's certainly not the baptizer that is doing the forgiving.
Notice the scriptures you include in your post, Acts 2:38 and 10:44, specifically reference the giving of the "gift" of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Not gifts. (plural)
Receiving the Holy Ghost into one's body is an essential part of the NT rebirth. This truth is revealed in Peter's message at Pentecost. Peter said receiving the Holy Ghost was available to ALL those willing to believe in Jesus, repent and submit to baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. (Acts 2:38-39) His message is a vivid picture of the reality of what Jesus said in John 3:3-5. No one can SEE or ENTER the kingdom of God without first being born of water and Spirit. Both remittance of sin, brought about by God, in accordance with obedience to His command of baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are revealed as essential elements of the rebirth.
It is after first receiving God's gift of the Holy Ghost that spiritual gifts then proceed from His indwelling presence. (1 Cor. 12)
Receiving the Holy Ghost into one's body is an essential part of the NT rebirth. This truth is revealed in Peter's message at Pentecost. Peter said receiving the Holy Ghost was available to ALL those willing to believe in Jesus, repent and submit to baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. (Acts 2:38-39) His message is a vivid picture of the reality of what Jesus said in John 3:3-5. No one can SEE or ENTER the kingdom of God without first being born of water and Spirit. Both remittance of sin, brought about by God, in accordance with obedience to His command of baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are revealed as essential elements of the rebirth.
It is after first receiving God's gift of the Holy Ghost that spiritual gifts then proceed from His indwelling presence. (1 Cor. 12)
I, too, understand that the baptizer is not the one remitting or retaining sin. However, they can interfere with God's intended purpose. As they are instruments used of God to administer water baptism. This is revealed in Peter's comments in Acts 11:17-18. Peter understood that to refuse to give the command to submit to baptism would result in Cornelius and the others not having their sins remitted in accordance with God's will at that time.
Peter commanded baptism AFTER the group received the Holy Ghost:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."
Acts 10:47-48
Peter's discussion with the Jewish Council where they acknowledged God granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles;
"Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:17-18
Peter commanded baptism AFTER the group received the Holy Ghost:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."
Acts 10:47-48
Peter's discussion with the Jewish Council where they acknowledged God granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles;
"Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:17-18
Thanks for your reply - however, it does not change what I posted. This verse of Scripture confirms that John had a revelation in the wilderness but as I stated earlier, we don't know if this expressly gave John authority to Baptize. It simply states that the word of God came unto him - not what the word of God entailed.
Nevertheless, I do believe John was given Divine authority to Baptize but my belief and having it revealed in Scripture are two completely different proofs.
Nevertheless, I do believe John was given Divine authority to Baptize but my belief and having it revealed in Scripture are two completely different proofs.
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