All carpenters are good finishers. And finishing doesn't seem to curry much debate. But where salvation and faith begins sure can stir up a nest of hornets.Author and finisher .
Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
- Thread starter IsaiahA
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:... just because that is the only option you can fathom does not mean that is the only option.
Salvation is by grace through faith ... the ones who reject do not partake of the gift ...
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Berean Standard Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
New King James Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
author = Greek arxēgós – the first in a long procession; a file-leader who pioneers the way for many others to follow. 747 (arxēgós) does not strictly mean "author," but rather "a person who is originator or founder of a movement and continues as the leader – i.e. 'pioneer leader, founding leader'
finisher = Greek /teleiōtḗs ("consummator") specifically refers to Jesus, the one bringing the life of faith to its complete conclusion (consummation, finish).
Vincent's Word Studies
Christ is the leader or captain of faith, in that he is the perfecter of faith. In himself he furnished the perfect development, the supreme example of faith, and in virtue of this he is the leader of the whole believing host in all time.
In Hebrews 2:10, the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as the captain of our salvation. If not for Him ...
You don't believe that explanation is a little disingenuous when one applies author to the faith in general and finisher to our faith? "And" is parallel construction. Whatever interpretation accepted should have author and finisher being the same. It speaks of our faith and not faith in general.
Philippians 1:6...He who has begun a good work in you...
Thank you!
Author and Finisher is not a statement about the personal faith of each person.
The problem always begins with "saving faith" being a gift, the first error which leads to many of the other errors of modern day Calvinism.
The word "our" does not appear in the text.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The point is to look away from the great cloud of witnesses we just read about in Hebrews 11 and keep our eyes focused on the Lord Jesus Christ who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame ... as we go through the trials and tribulations of this life (run our race - vs 1), keep Him in our focus ... iow Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me – Matt 16:24.
.
Hebrews 12:1-3
... instead of looking at the problems we face at the moment ... look to the One Who is our constant companion and Who helps us overcome.
.
To merely say it is to look upon Jesus ignores that the text has a definite focus on what we are to consider when looking.
The latter verse is to disciples. It's about how to walk in newness of life; not how it comes.
Yes, that is why the Father made Christ (alone) the Saviour and not us. Were it otherwise, He would have to condemn all of those
who do not live up and satisfy His requirements because we know that God does not have two salvation plans.
For me it's rather odd how many Christian sects claim sola scriptura and yet depend on so much more...
By grace we receive the Spirit, the experience of which is suggested in places like John 17:20-26, 1 John 1:5, and 1 John 4:7-21 but we think it comes by the letter and mere belief despite 2 Corinthians 3:1-18 and Acts 19:1-7...
It is certainly true that not everyone follows Jesus, and thus not everyone is saved by him...
To this extent his scope is limited, but all who come to him have the opportunity.
By grace we receive the Spirit, the experience of which is suggested in places like John 17:20-26, 1 John 1:5, and 1 John 4:7-21 but we think it comes by the letter and mere belief despite 2 Corinthians 3:1-18 and Acts 19:1-7...
It is certainly true that not everyone follows Jesus, and thus not everyone is saved by him...
To this extent his scope is limited, but all who come to him have the opportunity.
I've told you multiple times that I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT OUR FAITH IS A REQUIREMENT FOR SALVATION. There is only ONE
requirement for salvation, that being, that God has chosen someone for it - everything else comes from that, period.
A person is not and cannot be in possession of the truth until and unless they first become born-again. In a sense
everyone not born-again, suppresses the truth.
[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Absolutely, positively, incorrect and totally absurd. As usual, you're trying to force a square peg in a round hole to make it say what you want - the verse in question just simply does not say nor support that.
You don't like it as written because it refutes a foundational principle of your interpretation of the gospel.
Too many Christians think such statements just apply to them as believers...
If that were the case there would be no need of teachings at all, just accept Jesus and go to heaven... done.
If that's true then we would have to satisfy the works of law (which no one can), to become saved - the result being that no one can become saved. It can't be both ways: it is either works or grace, not both - that salvation is either all grace, no works, or, all works no grace, but it can't be of both.
I'll try to address the other points of you post later.
Are you not trying to project your own interpretation too?
Do you not feel that is rather hypocritical of you?
This is a mystical tradition, its methods are intended to work on everyone.
Jesus says the righteous have no need of a physician, suggesting he is aware some are saved already without his interaction.
Concluding from this that only a select few Christians even have the capacity is absurd.
Frank, except that God desires those saved to know, understand, and believe what is the basis of their salvation.
[Eph 4:11-13 KJV]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
I am an Apostle by the definition of 1 Corinthians 4:1
The body of Christ is presented in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 as the mystical unity of those with the Spirit...
We are also to have the mind of Christ ala 1 Corinthians 2:12-16...
We are to share in his glory ala John 17:20-26 and live as he did in the world ala 1 John 4:7-21
It is true that not everyone will understand and experience the meaning of such verses, they are too concerned with the letter to ever reach the Spirit ala 2 Corinthians 3:6 but that doesn't mean they weren't provided the capacity... which is what your position suggests.
Yes, there were some saved, but being the Saviour, that all who became/become saved were/are so by Him
No, it is not absurd, unless you believe that one must trust in works, not grace for salvation - it can't be by both.
The conclusion was drawn not from that alone.