Breathe had posted the parable in Mathew 13:18 on seeds landing on different soils and dying and that finally the seeds that landed on the good soil produced fruit, some 40 fold and some 100 fold. So the thought now is how can other churches tend to their ground so that it becomes fruitful and members do not die spiritually and leave. So that their memberships begin to increase again.
WHY ARE CHRISTIANS GIVING UP THEIR FAITH IN THE USA?
- Thread starter arthurfleminger
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YES,
But the way of the cross leads HOME
prove me now
saith the Lord of hosts
We ought to fear GOD not man.
Walk before GOD
not man
“do always those things that please (God) him.”
Matthew 19:26 KJV
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
But the way of the cross leads HOME
prove me now
saith the Lord of hosts
We ought to fear GOD not man.
Walk before GOD
not man
“do always those things that please (God) him.”
Matthew 19:26 KJV
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
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That doesn't hold true for every pastor. My pastor is paid and there was an issue in the church that was causing some division. A young couple were living together, and she was getting support from the gov't. They were defrauding the gov't and some of the women of the church wanted to give her a baby shower. The pastor took the couple aside and told them that he needed to get a job and they needed to get married. They got offended and left and one or two with them. Pastor stood up on Sunday morning, told us what he said and what happened and said he did what he believed was right. He and I talked privately before and he said he would never stay in a church where he felt the people weren't behind him. He said if they wanted something different, he was more than willing to move on. He's a gentle person, not one for show, but he is direct and he doesn't change his mind if he believes what he is doing is coming from the Lord.
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He sounds like a God fearing pastor.
And I’m not surprised that
it is not scriptural
to pay pastors a salary.
I can understand that
it is not a wise thing to do.
Human nature begins to take over when money is involved.
(A regular paid salary, is different to a gift of money)
We have the example of Balaam who feared God, heard God’s voice, but he was a greedy covetous man.
And Gehazi while serving Gods servant Elijah used deceit to get the reward and became a leper.
1 Corinthians 9:1-19 KJV
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
[17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
[18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
[19] For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
And I’m not surprised that
it is not scriptural
to pay pastors a salary.
I can understand that
it is not a wise thing to do.
Human nature begins to take over when money is involved.
(A regular paid salary, is different to a gift of money)
We have the example of Balaam who feared God, heard God’s voice, but he was a greedy covetous man.
And Gehazi while serving Gods servant Elijah used deceit to get the reward and became a leper.
1 Corinthians 9:1-19 KJV
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
[17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
[18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
[19] For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
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While it is not scriptural to have "a pastor" vs a presbytery of elders, it is perfectly scriptural to compensate elders who labor in the Word and doctrine. It is also scriptural to compensate evangelists.
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (1 Tim 5:17, 18) The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.(2 Tim 2:6,7) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. (1 Cor 9:13,14)
The real problem which has plagued evangelical and fundamental churches is that the New Testament pattern of having a plurality of elders in each church was abandoned. At the same time Christians were mistakenly taught that only those who had graduated from a seminary or Bible school were qualified to be "pastors". Then churches began "hiring" those graduates who were not even members of those churches to begin with. Thus the task of shepherding fell on one man unfairly and his role as a shepherd was totally undermined. He was assigned the job of preaching exclusively and dealing with administrative issues. None of this was scriptural. It is impossible for one man to do the work of a group of elders who are called to serve and are also gifted accordingly. But that is what we see in the NT. Then the idea of a clerical hierarchy was promoted very early in the history of the church, and elders were changed into "priests".
More recently the trend towards modern bible versions, rejection of the use of Bibles during worship, preaching and teaching, the use of study guides instead of the Bible, entertainment instead of worship, and many other trends which undermined the proper discipling of Christians have led to what is being now believed even among "born again" Christians. A recent Barna survey claims that almost half of "born again" Christians do not believe that Christ was sinless.
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (1 Tim 5:17, 18) The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.(2 Tim 2:6,7) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. (1 Cor 9:13,14)
The real problem which has plagued evangelical and fundamental churches is that the New Testament pattern of having a plurality of elders in each church was abandoned. At the same time Christians were mistakenly taught that only those who had graduated from a seminary or Bible school were qualified to be "pastors". Then churches began "hiring" those graduates who were not even members of those churches to begin with. Thus the task of shepherding fell on one man unfairly and his role as a shepherd was totally undermined. He was assigned the job of preaching exclusively and dealing with administrative issues. None of this was scriptural. It is impossible for one man to do the work of a group of elders who are called to serve and are also gifted accordingly. But that is what we see in the NT. Then the idea of a clerical hierarchy was promoted very early in the history of the church, and elders were changed into "priests".
More recently the trend towards modern bible versions, rejection of the use of Bibles during worship, preaching and teaching, the use of study guides instead of the Bible, entertainment instead of worship, and many other trends which undermined the proper discipling of Christians have led to what is being now believed even among "born again" Christians. A recent Barna survey claims that almost half of "born again" Christians do not believe that Christ was sinless.
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In the UK, the church of England (the largest church organisation) is very traditional and not attractive to younger people. Lots of churches have shut down with one minster looking after three churches. The new evangelical churches are thriving and growing so I suppose this might mean something.
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The more I read about these things you have written, the more it reminds me of how privileged I am to be in the House of God here, where the church is built according to the book of Acts, with
plurality of elders,
None of them are Bible school/college graduates
We only use the Bible (KJV)
Jesus Christ is the sinless Son of God.
(That’s why I said pastors, because it is not scriptural to have only one pastor.
But at the time the topic was on the salary issue.)
So Nehemiah6 are you building a church according to the book of acts.
Surely you are putting these things into practice. ☺️
plurality of elders,
None of them are Bible school/college graduates
We only use the Bible (KJV)
Jesus Christ is the sinless Son of God.
(That’s why I said pastors, because it is not scriptural to have only one pastor.
But at the time the topic was on the salary issue.)
So Nehemiah6 are you building a church according to the book of acts.
Surely you are putting these things into practice. ☺️
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P
When your religion is your faith it will soon depart. Sadly this is the truth of many.
Many will come and say Lord havent we done these things in your name?...Jesus answered I never knew you.
Now heres the contrast.
Jesus then asked his disciples...will you leave me also? They replied...where will we go? You have the words of life.
Adding JESUS to your life is not bibical. Jesus being the life you have is.
The love of many will wax cold.
How many times have you heard..I tried christanity it doesnt work. Sadly many fall into this trap.
The Lord says ......my people fail for lack of knowledge.
Jesus said...without me you can do nothing. Thats huge. That would even include enduring untill the end.
Let us never forget that we are sinners saved by grace...we are but dust. Relationship is key, you may know of God through his word but does he know you? Situations, emotions, change us continually but our GOD is a never changing GOD.
What he has spoken will come to pass reguardless of any or all obstacles.
Dont be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds in CHRIST JESUS.
Many will come and say Lord havent we done these things in your name?...Jesus answered I never knew you.
Now heres the contrast.
Jesus then asked his disciples...will you leave me also? They replied...where will we go? You have the words of life.
Adding JESUS to your life is not bibical. Jesus being the life you have is.
The love of many will wax cold.
How many times have you heard..I tried christanity it doesnt work. Sadly many fall into this trap.
The Lord says ......my people fail for lack of knowledge.
Jesus said...without me you can do nothing. Thats huge. That would even include enduring untill the end.
Let us never forget that we are sinners saved by grace...we are but dust. Relationship is key, you may know of God through his word but does he know you? Situations, emotions, change us continually but our GOD is a never changing GOD.
What he has spoken will come to pass reguardless of any or all obstacles.
Dont be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds in CHRIST JESUS.
To tell you the truth I have been sabotaged repeatedly. But hopefully that will change soon. We need to focus on where the Lord places the focus: But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just... So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. (Lk 14:13,14,21)
So the plan is to not only have a place for worship, preaching, and teaching, but to have a complex with a food bank, a homeless shelter, and even a clinic and a library. This is how those described above may come to know Christ and be helped materially.
So the plan is to not only have a place for worship, preaching, and teaching, but to have a complex with a food bank, a homeless shelter, and even a clinic and a library. This is how those described above may come to know Christ and be helped materially.
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Yes many are giving up their faith. They say it doesn't work, isn't relevant any more, etc.
What I would ask is, why are so many Christians giving up on the doctrines of faith, while claiming to still cling to it?
IE, why do so many who claim the faith embrace mammon worship, self-idolatry, abandonment of the sick/poor/foreign, cheating workers, lies and hypocrisies, and abandon the fruit of the Spirit??
What I would ask is, why are so many Christians giving up on the doctrines of faith, while claiming to still cling to it?
IE, why do so many who claim the faith embrace mammon worship, self-idolatry, abandonment of the sick/poor/foreign, cheating workers, lies and hypocrisies, and abandon the fruit of the Spirit??
