I do.
Not being good with using words i may have given the wrong impression. Please let me know what i wrote that left that impression
Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture
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Not being good with using words i may have given the wrong impression. Please let me know what i wrote that left that impression
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Its possible i misumderstood you.
So you do understand that there is not a different salvation for jews than gentiles, that Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, and that Israel and the church are one and the same and always has been, because its never been about flesh its alwats been about Jesus and faith.
The unity of the body of Christ from the creation to today rings true to me. There was no cut off between Old Testament and New there was bridge His name is Jesus . There is no ,them and us, we are one in the Lord. We have a strong picture of walking that bridge in Saul to Paul. We know from the writings of Peter he once followed Judaism yet he was/is Christian or a follower of Christ .
I read dispensational teaching as being a divider , we are told a house divided can not stand. Over the last 200 years or so Darby& Scofield have caused great divisions in the Church. Personally i lay that at Scofield because of what he did to the Bible. What i mean by what he did to the Bible was placing his notes on the pages . Yes they are labeled as notes but it bugs me.
I read dispensational teaching as being a divider , we are told a house divided can not stand. Over the last 200 years or so Darby& Scofield have caused great divisions in the Church. Personally i lay that at Scofield because of what he did to the Bible. What i mean by what he did to the Bible was placing his notes on the pages . Yes they are labeled as notes but it bugs me.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
She was not attacked by me. I didn't make the comment she is attributing to me. Its beyond my understanding. I was hoping a mod would clear the issue up.
I agree with much of this but where I disagree is absolutely vital to a correct understanding of Israel's future fulfilment of God's plan. I read your posts with interest by the way.
They still are looking for Messiah, they will build a temple in anticipation of his arrival.
But they will not receive that Man of sin who is the Antichrist and the coming world ruler, the Jews will be in cohorts with him, it is with him that they make a 7 years treaty. During this time Ac will be raging against all religion [especially the church] which is the Great Tribulation. The church must not expect any succour or friendship from the Jews during that time of persecution.
But after 3.1/2 years Antichrist will break his pact.
The Jews will have built their temple and that is what he has waiting for. He will gather the armies of the world and he will invade Israel Israel will fight valiantly in Jerusalem but be overwhelmed and those who do not flee will be massacred.
The Beast will enter the temple and take his seat declaring himself to be God. He will be slain by the returning Lord.
The Jews
When they SEE the Lord, they will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born son. They as a nation will be converted.
We should not expect to see Antichrist until the Jews start building that temple.
I agree with much of this but where I disagree is absolutely vital to a correct understanding of Israel's future fulfilment of God's plan. I read your posts with interest by the way.
They still are looking for Messiah, they will build a temple in anticipation of his arrival.
But they will not receive that Man of sin who is the Antichrist and the coming world ruler, the Jews will be in cohorts with him, it is with him that they make a 7 years treaty. During this time Ac will be raging against all religion [especially the church] which is the Great Tribulation. The church must not expect any succour or friendship from the Jews during that time of persecution.
But after 3.1/2 years Antichrist will break his pact.
The Jews will have built their temple and that is what he has waiting for. He will gather the armies of the world and he will invade Israel Israel will fight valiantly in Jerusalem but be overwhelmed and those who do not flee will be massacred.
The Beast will enter the temple and take his seat declaring himself to be God. He will be slain by the returning Lord.
The Jews
When they SEE the Lord, they will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born son. They as a nation will be converted.
We should not expect to see Antichrist until the Jews start building that temple.
Well the discussion for me never seems to move past the Abrahamic covenant which no one seemed to learn in Sunday school that it was unconditional and everlasting. Either way a few times I have made it this far. Thank you for putting it forward so succinctly. I have heard a few people asking lately if the beast will have something to do with AI. This is what I have been saying all along, when I can get past go.
Oh I believe in Election alright, the church that casts off Israel the most are the Replacement people who preach predestiny and election the most ... can anyone figger that one out?
If Israel's election doesn't hold then neither do the church's
I never said there was a different salvation, for anyone. I didn't say Jesus wasn't the fulfillment, He is part of it. But there are promises made to Israel that God will keep. Romans 11 is not talking about the church, only a small part talks about Gentiles.
Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
Conditions
You were told you could drive the car , Johnny you do all the chores i asked you to do if you want to drive the car.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Conditions
You were told you could drive the car , Johnny you do all the chores i asked you to do if you want to drive the car.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
110% I always say " if God won't keep His promise to the Jews, you can't trust Him to keep His promise to you" That needs to be said again "If Israel's election doesn't hold then neither do the church's" !!
Are you saying God did not choose Israel? He chose [elected] Israel to PROVE the principle evil deeds bring trouble and distress, glory and honour and peace come to those who do good.
Israel [and the church] are God's chosen people by whom He demonstrates the principle.
Now we have to decide what evil is and what good is ....
Jesus did good and got evil we did sin and got good ... figger THAT one out.
It is very difficult sometimes to understand the Evangelical mindset [I am of course evangelical]Are you saying God did not choose Israel? He chose [elected] Israel to PROVE the principle evil deeds bring trouble and distress, glory and honour and peace come to those who do good.
Israel [and the church] are God's chosen people by whom He demonstrates the principle.
Now we have to decide what evil is and what good is ....
Jesus did good and got evil we did sin and got good ... figger THAT one out.
The Jews rejected Jesus because when He came He was not what they expected, they thought THEY were the righteous people of the world and when Messiah came He would destroy the wicked, heathen world.
That is EXACTLY the Evangelical expectation today.
They think when Jesus next comes He will save the church and destroy everyone else. They are as far away from God in their understanding as the Jews were.
When Jesus comes next He comes to REIGN, here on earth and all the peoples of the world will flock to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob and walk in His paths ... it is the time when the rest of mankind will come in. When swords will be beaten into ploughshares and spears into pruning hooks and nations will learn war no more.
The Kingdom of Heaven [the Millennium] [Paul says] is righteousness, peace and friendship with God.
it IS the gospel we should be announcing ... not Heaven but Heaven on Earth.
Jesus took our sin and received the penalty, and this took the penalty of sin away from us. That is His glory is reflected in us. The Jews were first to be offered the gift of grace by faith, but 'first' in an ordinal sense rather than the cardinal. Abram started out as "exalted father" but God made him (a new name) "father of a multitude," Abraham, when He adopted Him. So, all who have been adopted by grace through faith in Christ, who provided Himself a lamb, are Abraham's children. Scripture declares that a child is a bastard if he is not chastised, and indeed, isn't eschatology about the punishment of the world?Jesus did good and got evil we did sin and got good ... figger THAT one out.
every
I should say that I do see "Israel", (the one God sees as the apple of his eye and that we are thinking of in our minds when we look at these fulfillment's) to be established at Jesus coming. That said though prior to this an secular kingdom,an forgery(image) of the true Israel is established(replacement Israel for lack of words to describe it)...
The reasoning for me thinking this is from Luke 13:35 (the OD) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/13.htm in that there is only one order in which I see this being fulfilled. It would make no sense that Jesus would establish his kingdom and then afterwards the Man of Sin rise up in the Lords Kingdom and take power over it. So rather in the opposite order the kingdom that the Man of Sin rules those that dwell on the earth(revelation 13:14 notice that it is not saying God does this but instead those dwelling on the earth make it's image) comes into existence. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-14.htm
He,the MoS then sits in that Temple,in that kingdom(the image/forgery) and claims to be God. Now "God" or "objects worshiped" are arbitrary to which faith or religion that those dwelling on the earth see as God or objects worshiped. That is to Judaism they anticipate the Messiah to be coming because they do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. To Christianity they anticipate and are awaiting the second coming of Jesus and the Islamic's are awaiting Isa and the Mahdi. Noticing the direct wording of Paul in 2 Thess.2 "above every so called",, then it I think should be noticed that this Man of Sin will not only deceive just (one) religion but instead the Jews will see him as the fulfillment of their awaited Messiah,,,to Islam he will be the Mahdi and to many Christians they will believe he is Jesus in the second coming,,, "every so called" not just one. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm ,,,,,,, he will make us think we are seeing the thing we expect instead of him(the MoS),,, the Mos and his kingdom comes first and then Jesus returns.
I agree with much of this but where I disagree is absolutely vital to a correct understanding of Israel's future fulfilment of God's plan. I read your posts with interest by the way.
They still are looking for Messiah, they will build a temple in anticipation of his arrival.
But they will not receive that Man of sin who is the Antichrist and the coming world ruler, the Jews will be in cohorts with him, it is with him that they make a 7 years treaty. During this time Ac will be raging against all religion [especially the church] which is the Great Tribulation. The church must not expect any succour or friendship from the Jews during that time of persecution.
But after 3.1/2 years Antichrist will break his pact.
The Jews will have built their temple and that is what he has waiting for. He will gather the armies of the world and he will invade Israel Israel will fight valiantly in Jerusalem but be overwhelmed and those who do not flee will be massacred.
The Beast will enter the temple and take his seat declaring himself to be God. He will be slain by the returning Lord.
The Jews
When they SEE the Lord, they will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born son. They as a nation will be converted.
We should not expect to see Antichrist until the Jews start building that temple.
I should say that I do see "Israel", (the one God sees as the apple of his eye and that we are thinking of in our minds when we look at these fulfillment's) to be established at Jesus coming. That said though prior to this an secular kingdom,an forgery(image) of the true Israel is established(replacement Israel for lack of words to describe it)...
The reasoning for me thinking this is from Luke 13:35 (the OD) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/13.htm in that there is only one order in which I see this being fulfilled. It would make no sense that Jesus would establish his kingdom and then afterwards the Man of Sin rise up in the Lords Kingdom and take power over it. So rather in the opposite order the kingdom that the Man of Sin rules those that dwell on the earth(revelation 13:14 notice that it is not saying God does this but instead those dwelling on the earth make it's image) comes into existence. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-14.htm
He,the MoS then sits in that Temple,in that kingdom(the image/forgery) and claims to be God. Now "God" or "objects worshiped" are arbitrary to which faith or religion that those dwelling on the earth see as God or objects worshiped. That is to Judaism they anticipate the Messiah to be coming because they do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. To Christianity they anticipate and are awaiting the second coming of Jesus and the Islamic's are awaiting Isa and the Mahdi. Noticing the direct wording of Paul in 2 Thess.2 "above every so called",, then it I think should be noticed that this Man of Sin will not only deceive just (one) religion but instead the Jews will see him as the fulfillment of their awaited Messiah,,,to Islam he will be the Mahdi and to many Christians they will believe he is Jesus in the second coming,,, "every so called" not just one. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm ,,,,,,, he will make us think we are seeing the thing we expect instead of him(the MoS),,, the Mos and his kingdom comes first and then Jesus returns.