Works of the Law

[TMS]

I agree with this post, yet in post #235, I explained how we believe differently.

I've gone back to post 235 to see how i differ to you..

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

We agree here, i just say faith without works is dead.

This statement below from your previous post implies that both faith and works are the root of salvation:

To be saved from the flood they needed to believe and obey, to be saved from Egypt and be passed over, (last plague), they needed to believe and obey. To be part of God's people at the end we need to believe and obey.

I'm implying that true believers will have works when it is needed or when their faith leads them to act or speak. Like you said below they believed and as a result they acted. It was faith that lead to action.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

i believe the same that His obedience is a demonstration of the faith and relationship he had with God.
"Building the ark (WORKS) demonstrated his faith and saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning." Faith = works and resulted in saving Noah physically from the flood.

God told Moses and Aaron to instruct the Israelites to paint blood on their door posts. This signified their faith in God's warning and marked them out from the pagan Egyptians; when the angel of death passed through Egypt he would pass over the doors marked with blood (hence the name, "Passover") without killing the firstborn males who lived within those houses.

Faith that resulted in works again and as a result saving the first born child. "This signified their faith in God's warning and marked them out from the pagan Egyptians;'
nothing has contradicted what i have said yet. If i say that our works mark us out from the pagans of today. im saying the same as you.

Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. So to be part of God's people at the end, just how much do we need to obey according to you? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Does that not imply that we are saved by faith AND obedience/works?

i agree that obedience is not forced and legalism is the wrong type of obedience. you asked "how much do we need to obey"??Obedience is the fruit of true faith and it isn't about the amount but about the faith and relationship with Jesus. i don't draw a line in the sand anywhere for anyone else and let God judge them as saved or not. It is not our works that save us but our works reflect our relationship and faith in Jesus which does save us. We can say we have faith in Jesus all we want (words are cheap) but if we are acting like the unconverted and being rebellious to the Holy Spirits promptings (it isn't for me to judge) but i can understand why Jesus will say "I never knew you. depart from Me you that worketh iniquity".

So far i can't see anything i said that is wrong or disagrees with you. The bible teaches that a good tree produces good fruit and i teach the same. If we are filled with a love for Jesus and His Spirit is in us we will delight to do His will and Obey the Father in Heaven. our works reflect what is in the heart.

 

[Inquisitor]

This is a simple question.... Because of the Love Grace and goodness of God in giving Jesus to suffer and die for my sins and yours do we now have the right to sin without consequence?
It was my sins that held Jesus to the cross so do i continue to sin today because the price was paid in advance?
How does the righteousness of Jesus that we receive as a free gift make us unable to sin?

The answer is a simple answer.

Yes, you can sin and escape the consequences of that sin because of Jesus.

If we were held accountable for our sin, then the atonement that Jesus offered is useless.

If sin carries a death sentence still, I can assure you that heaven will be empty.

All have sinned and still sin and have fallen way short of perfect holiness.

The question is not so much is everyone still sinning, it's the magnitude of the sin.

 

[Inquisitor]

the law reveals sin. Jesus paid the price for it in full and gives us a perfect robe of righteousness. The law was perfectly obeyed by Jesus and therefore we are see as if we did too. the law reveals the unrighteous, murderers, adulterers, thieves, etc. so we realize our need of Jesus and His gift every second of the day. Sin is still sin and God will not force us to stop sinning. He will free us from sin in 3 ways.

Justification = Imparted righteousness
Sanctification = Imputed righteousness
Glorification = Final Tranformation

I agree. We can do next to zero when it comes to real holiness.

Real love is fairly absent, I think, from most Christian's lives.

Gluttony, social media, gaming, sport, and every other worldly practice, prevail throughout the Christian world.

We should notice the elephant in the room.

The cry in the wilderness these days is talking about an authentic holiness, a first century holiness.

Holiness is an event that cannot occur in the 21st century, the temptations are too extreme now.

 

[Inquisitor]

If you steal...are you not a thief?
If you kill someone, are you not a murderer?
If you commit adultery, you are not an Adulterer?
Does becoming a Christian....change these facts?

Well Christians are supposed to be free from the penalty of death for their sin. That's what I read.

The devil is in the detail.

Your thought life is what will condemn you according to Jesus.

The physical act of murder or adultery can be resisted but calling or thinking someone is a fool. Is virtually impossible to achieve and that is the internal act of murder. Your thought life reflects your nature.

We fail continually at every level of sin. I think it is better to just admit your a rampant sinner and confess.

I don't think there has ever been a true, holy person, ever.

Some folk are just masters at disguising their sinful ways.

 

[Inquisitor]

And the Law only applies to people who are alive. Once we are "dead in Christ" the Law has no bearing on our life.

Gentiles were never required to be circumcised, so Gentiles cannot be under the law.

Not one letter of the law will pass unless all things have been fulfilled.

Circumcision must still be valid unless Jesus fulfilled all things.

 

[TMS]

yet in post #235, I explained how we believe differently.

continuing on ....

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Salvation is not a reward that we receive based on works. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

These bible verses they do not contradict each other. We can not boast in anything we do and our works will not earn us salvation. Faith in the Blood of Jesus is what saves us. Do you understand why i say faith and works are so closely connected and that our works reflect our faith. Like Abraham when he went to sacrificed his beloved son... They were works that reflected his faith.

If i promote the keeping of the law and the commandments it doesn't mean i'm promoting salvation by works.
It means i'm promoting the righteousness of God and therefore helping people to understand the sin that may be in there lives..
I doing the same as Jesus and Paul and many others before me which said "keep the commandments".

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for the Lord, but is not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

I agree. So let us demonstrate our love for Jesus by obedience.

Sure we should obey our Lord after we have been saved through faith, yet there is a difference between doing His will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

The only obedience that is accepted is by faith. Faith in Jesus. We can't truely obey without Christ in us and if we try to obey without Jesus we will only fail. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

i've alway said we obey because we are save not to be saved.

Obedience that believers produce "after they have been saved through faith" is the fruit of salvation or the means of salvation? Which do you proclaim?

i say it is the fruit of salvation because the means is found in Jesus and what He did.

Those who teach salvation by faith and works are typically fond of these verses. I'm sure that "turn from the holy commandments" in verse 21 really jumped out at you, especially if you believe that commandment keeping is the basis or means by which we obtain and/or maintain our salvation.

I'm fond of all bible verses including the ones above. The keeping of the commandments are not the means to obtain or maintain salvation but are a result of salvation.
i delight to keep the commandments because of what Jesus did for me.
So to conclude
I'm not sure why I'm speaking out of both sides and why i'm so wrong for promoting obedience to the commandments when it is a result of our understanding of salvation and our love for Jesus.

 

[TMS]

Yes, you can sin and escape the consequences of that sin because of Jesus.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

knowing what sin cost costs.... i don't want to practice it.

 

[TMS]

Well Christians are supposed to be free from the penalty of death for their sin. That's what I read.

The devil is in the detail.

Your thought life is what will condemn you according to Jesus.

The physical act of murder or adultery can be resisted but calling or thinking someone is a fool. Is virtually impossible to achieve and that is the internal act of murder. Your thought life reflects your nature.

We fail continually at every level of sin. I think it is better to just admit your a rampant sinner and confess.

I don't think there has ever been a true, holy person, ever.

Some folk are just masters at disguising their sinful ways.

Do you understand the difference between Justification and sanctification?

 

[Aaron56]

Gentiles were never required to be circumcised, so Gentiles cannot be under the law.

Not one letter of the law will pass unless all things have been fulfilled.

Circumcision must still be valid unless Jesus fulfilled all things.

Dead in Christ requires no DNA test or proof of lineage. It’s available to all. And the result is the same: the Law has no bearing in the life of the dead.

 

[Mem]

Not that Simple -----Many believe in what you say here and are not Born Again ------Just believing in something doesn't mean you accept it as truth and trust what it says ------

We may believe Jesus took all sickness and disease with Him on the cross as the scriptures says but that does not means that sickness and disease is void from our Lives -----it takes a more deeper belief and trust in what the Word says than just a belief ----

The Truth is not that complicated. Many try to complicate it by trying to infuse it with their own sense of 'righteousness.'

 

[Goliath]

What do you think the church teaches about Paul's idea of grace? Do you mean Ephesians 2:1-10?

Sorry, meant to get back to you and forgot.
Basically, they are using what Paul taught about Grace, to teach that we do not need to make Jesus the Lord of our lives in order to be saved.

 

[Goliath]

Becoming a Christian may not change the fact that someone previously stold, murdered or committed adultery, but it does change who we are positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

If you can reconcile what Paul taught, with what someone else taught in the Bible, we can have an intelligent conversation. But if you do not have any witnesses, this would be fruitless.

 

[Goliath]

To be a slave to something means it controls everything about you.

Did you ever see yourself as a slave to sin? If you did, how did you recognize that you were?

 

[Goliath]

Do you claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?

Lets turn that question around, because it's not about me or you, it's about Jesus.
The bible is very clear, that when someone is born again, Jesus lives in them.
Do you agree?
Now lets look at your question from that viewpoint.

If you lie, steal, commit adultery, and murder someone, doesn't that make Jesus your accomplice in these sins against God and man?
If it doesn't, please explain how it doesn't.
Now for those who are biblically Born of God...not the "Billy Graham version".
They can not lie, steal, commit adultery, or murder.
Why?
Because God lives in them and they would be terrified to do these things.

 

[Goliath]

Well Christians are supposed to be free from the penalty of death for their sin. That's what I read.
.

Well that is the message from the foolish doctrines.
Why foolish?
People who follow these doctrines....
Claim Jesus is their Lord, but say they don't have to live in obedience to the one they call 'Lord.
Claim the have been born of God, are Sons of God....and continue to sin as the Sons of God.
Claim Jesus lives in them, not realizing, if this was true, Jesus would be an accomplice to their sin against God.
Sin, but Claim they are not slaves of sin, but are slaves of righteousness. If they were slaves of righteousness, how does their sin serve God? If they were free to serve God, why would they sin against God??

Well I could add many many more examples, to show how foolish these doctrines are...but I think you get the gist.

 

[mailmandan]

Lets turn that question around, because it's not about me or you, it's about Jesus.
The bible is very clear, that when someone is born again, Jesus lives in them.
Do you agree?
Now lets look at your question from that viewpoint.

If you lie, steal, commit adultery, and murder someone, doesn't that make Jesus your accomplice in these sins against God and man?
If it doesn't, please explain how it doesn't.
Now for those who are biblically Born of God...not the "Billy Graham version".
They can not lie, steal, commit adultery, or murder.
Why?
Because God lives in them and they would be terrified to do these things.

My question requires a YES or NO answer.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Basically, they are using what Paul taught about Grace, to teach that we do not need to make Jesus the Lord of our lives in order to be saved.

That a total switch from telling people that they are saved by the works of the Law. So which is it? And if you now do not believe that people are saved by the works of the Law then it is high time for you to apologize for this foolish thread.

 

[Inquisitor]

If you steal...are you not a thief?
If you kill someone, are you not a murderer?
If you commit adultery, you are not an Adulterer?
Does becoming a Christian....change these facts?

If you consider someone a fool, that is a murderous thought pattern, your guilty enough to go downstairs.

The way you think about others and the way you treat other people, is the law and the prophets. That's what Jesus said.

How you treat others is what it's all about. Whether you see that in the law or not, that is what the law is saying.

Do not hurt other people, in thought, speech or behavior.

Which is agape love.

 

[mailmandan]

continuing on ....

These bible verses they do not contradict each other. We can not boast in anything we do and our works will not earn us salvation. Faith in the Blood of Jesus is what saves us. Do you understand why i say faith and works are so closely connected and that our works reflect our faith. Like Abraham when he went to sacrificed his beloved son... They were works that reflected his faith.

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but not the very essence of our faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

If i promote the keeping of the law and the commandments it doesn't mean i'm promoting salvation by works.
It means i'm promoting the righteousness of God and therefore helping people to understand the sin that may be in there lives..
I doing the same as Jesus and Paul and many others before me which said "keep the commandments".

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I agree. So let us demonstrate our love for Jesus by obedience.

Obedience is how we demonstrate our love for Jesus. We should all agree on that.

The only obedience that is accepted is by faith. Faith in Jesus. We can't truely obey without Christ in us and if we try to obey without Jesus we will only fail. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Amen!

i've alway said we obey because we are save not to be saved.

Amen!

i say it is the fruit of salvation because the means is found in Jesus and what He did.

Amen!

I'm fond of all bible verses including the ones above. The keeping of the commandments are not the means to obtain or maintain salvation but are a result of salvation.

Amen! 1 John 2:3-4.

i delight to keep the commandments because of what Jesus did for me.

Love and gratitude for Jesus and what He did for us should be our motivation for obedience.

So to conclude
I'm not sure why I'm speaking out of both sides and why i'm so wrong for promoting obedience to the commandments when it is a result of our understanding of salvation and our love for Jesus.

I liked what you said in this post, yet in other posts it does sound like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Semantics?

 

[Goliath]

My question requires a YES or NO answer.

I thought my answer was implied.
No, I do not lie, steal, commit adultery, or murder...in thought or in deed. This I can not do, because Jesus my Lord will not allow me to.

Yes, I know what (1 John 1) says, but if you can not use supporting scripture with it, its nothing more than your opinion.