Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

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ThereRoseaLamb

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Friends dont go from having opposing views discussions to unfounded personal attacks .
Have I attacked you since we have known each other here?! I have been here longer than most. I have gone out of my way to be clear in my intent, I have contacted people privately where I saw an issue. And rather than coming to me in private so I could clarify any misunderstanding you block me. Unbelievable. CC never fails to amaze me. And we wonder why people don't want to be a part of Christianity. Even sinners understand the concept of forgiving one another. smh Unreal.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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You have to take into accound what os written in Romans 9 as well. So when Paul writes all of Israel in chapter 11 he has already explained what that means in chapter 9.
Ok, let's do a thought experiment. Read Romans 11 again and everywhere it says "Israel" say "church" and see if it comes out making sense.
 
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Locoponydirtman

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Ok, let's do a thought experiment. Read Romans 11 again and everywhere it says "Israel" say "church" and see if it comes out making sense.
No, because the full context has to be applied. Replacing a word does not give full context in fact it robs from the context. Simply read chapter 11 as thought it were not written as a separate writing. That it is a thought that flows from previous chapters and into following chapters.
I dont know why you keep thinking that i some how sunscribe to replacement theology. I think you are reading your objections into what i have written.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
Replacement Theology is also known as Supersessionism and Fulfillment Theology. No matter the name, it is a dangerous and false doctrine. So much so that it was denounced by both the Protestant and Catholic churches after the Holocaust.

There are many beliefs that make up Replacement Theology but the three main premises are:

Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, the Church has replaced them.

After Pentecost, whenever the NT mentions “Israel” it’s actually referring to the Church. Therefore, the Church is Spiritual Israel and the “Jews” are Gentile believers who are “inner Jews.”

The Mosaic Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant completely abolished. Therefore, the New Covenant through Jesus supersedes (thus, Supersessionism) or replaces the old covenant which was made exclusively with the Jews.

Replacement Theology has:
Misinterpreted God as a fickle God who breaks His own promises and backtracks on what He has established.

It paints God as having made an everlasting covenant (Genesis 17:7-14 & Exodus 19-24) with Abraham and Moses only to break them in the New Testament, despite promising that His Word would come to pass (Isaiah 40:8). If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8) then why would He change His mind about Israel?

Created anti-semitism

It’s easy to see how replacement theology has caused anti-semitism. It was in the minds of people long before Martin Luther published his hateful proclamations against Jews which influenced Nazi philosophy.

Some of the comments of the church fathers show why this philosophy is so dangerous.

Hippolytus of Rome said that the Jews had been darkened in the eyes of their souls, “with a darkness utter and everlasting.” And declared that Jews were destined to be, “slaves to the nations, not for four hundred years as in Egypt, nor seventy as in Babylon, but always.”

John Chrysostom said, “Jews are inveterate murderers possessed by the Devil. Their debauchery and drunkenness gives them the manners of a pig… This is why I hate the Jews.”
Ambrose of Milan said, “The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ, and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them.”

"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)
Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.


Justin Martyr- The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark...
The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem


Peter the Venerable- Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

John Calvin - Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Martin Luther- First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...


Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home..

You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination..

Caused Jews to loath Christianity
Because of the atrocious sentiments and statements against the Jews, it has made them reject the Gospel and caused difficulties with Jewish evangelism.

So you ask me why I have always stood here or in person against Replacement Theology. THIS is the reason! This is where the doctrine comes from. Do these comments seem Christlike to you??!! I will ALWAYS stand against Replacement Theology. Maybe someone will join me now they see it's roots which led all the way to the Holocaust.
Ill be your huckleberry🤗🤗
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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I dont know why you keep thinking that i some how sunscribe to replacement theology. I think you are reading your objections into what i have written.

Ok, but remember, the longer post was not directed at you but the OP, who oddly seems to have disappeared. So what are you saying that I'm not hearing? Or where do you see we agree or differ most?
 
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Locoponydirtman

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Beckie

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Have I attacked you since we have known each other here?! I have been here longer than most. I have gone out of my way to be clear in my intent, I have contacted people privately where I saw an issue. And rather than coming to me in private so I could clarify any misunderstanding you block me. Unbelievable. CC never fails to amaze me. And we wonder why people don't want to be a part of Christianity. Even sinners understand the concept of forgiving one another. smh Unreal.[/QUOTE
Yes you did post #281 and again here
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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Yes you did post #281 and again here

I did not comment on post 281. So do I get to charge you with attacking me?!! And no I didn't attack you "here" either. smh

"Have I attacked you since we have known each other here?! I have been here longer than most. I have gone out of my way to be clear in my intent, I have contacted people privately where I saw an issue. And rather than coming to me in private so I could clarify any misunderstanding you block me. Unbelievable. CC never fails to amaze me. And we wonder why people don't want to be a part of Christianity. Even sinners understand the concept of forgiving one another. smh Unreal."

No personal attack in what I said and I didn't comment on 281. I sure don't know how you would take it if you were actually personally attacked as some do here. I have no reason to "personally attack" you. I don't know you personally. We've disagreed here a couple times and I have gone out of my way to make sure we were still CC "friends". So it would have been common curtsy for you to PM me if you felt "attacked" and ask if there was an issue since I would have no reason to turn on you out of the blue. CC is becoming a joke. I've PMed people here over a misunderstanding and they asked forgiveness and we have gone on our way. Seems to get worse here every day.
 

Beckie

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My guess this thread is now dead to its topic. Betting that when one puts folks on ignore it messes wiht the posts numbers. This is what my page tells me post # 281 is... i highlighted the most offending line in bold black. Along wiht the implications made in the post to me this is a personal attack. Any more postings to this will be in ignore.
That shows you really didn't read what I posted. I'm not the one making that implication - YOU are.

I'm just going to repost the last paragraph of my previous post:

The Bible teaches that God will eventually fulfill the promise to give Israel full control over the Promised Land. Israel’s full territory will ultimately be ruled by the Messiah during the Millennium (Revelation 20:1–6). God’s promises, partly fulfilled throughout history, will have complete, literal, fulfillment prior to God’s creation of new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21—22; cf. Psalm 72:8).

You're already lost on all this since you hate Jews so much, but other Christians need to know this about God's ability to keep promises and how much He still loves His people, Israel.

To all of you Christians, this is important! His loving the Jews reflects His love for His gentile people, the Christians as well. How many times have we failed God and yet God continues to love us and reconcile us to Him? If God doesn't give up on Israel, that means God will not give up on us either!

 

ThereRoseaLamb

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This phrase is being attributed to me, post 281

"You're already lost on all this since you hate Jews so much, but other Christians need to know this about God's ability to keep promises and how much He still loves His people, Israel."

It is a phrase that I never wrote and I would appreciate a mod getting involved here. If I wrote something I will stand behind it. Mods here know me well enough by now. I would appreciate this issue be settled asap. The comment did not come from me and I am being falsely accused. Please straighten out this issue so the thread can continue. Thank you.
 
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Locoponydirtman

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Ok, but remember, the longer post was not directed at you but the OP, who oddly seems to have disappeared. So what are you saying that I'm not hearing? Or where do you see we agree or differ most?
Sticking with the analogy of the tree. Dispensationalism proposes that there is 2 trees a gentile tree and a jew tree, but there is not. There is one tree and that is of faith, sons of Abraham. The gentiles are grafted into that tree, and some jews are broken off.
The fulfillment of the promise to Abraham is through Christ Jesus.
 

Cameron143

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Sticking with the analogy of the tree. Dispensationalism proposes that there is 2 trees a gentile tree and a jew tree, but there is not. There is one tree and that is of faith, sons of Abraham. The gentiles are grafted into that tree, and some jews are broken off.
The fulfillment of the promise to Abraham is through Christ Jesus.
All the promises of God are in Him yea, and in Him amen.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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Sticking with the analogy of the tree. Dispensationalism proposes that there is 2 trees a gentile tree and a jew tree, but there is not. There is one tree and that is of faith, sons of Abraham. The gentiles are grafted into that tree, and some jews are broken off.
The fulfillment of the promise to Abraham is through Christ Jesus.

Really don't know if this thread should be continued until misunderstandings are cleared up. Either way I believe we are all one tree, I just believe there are promises that were made before we were grafted in that God is obligated to fulfill.
 

Beckie

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Over the years dispensationalism has morphed into many isms . So many folks who hold to dispensationalism do not have the understanding of its beginnings, believing it is just the way things are. As a child i understood Scofields notes to be scripture because his notes were printed in the Bible. Dumb yup, but the plan worked many bought into his teaching lock stock and barrel. Family has one of the first editions of his version cant remember any more if is 1909 or 06...

here is a short example of Scofield's notes Jesus said...
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Scofiels' notes on verse Mat 13:30 he wrote this
The gathering of the tares into bundles for burning does not imply immediate judgment. At the end of this age (Mat_13:40) the tares are set apart for burning, but first the wheat is gathered into the barn

History tells us Scofield the man was not a good guy, yet we are all sinners that is between him and God.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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Calling on mods to correct the issues in the thread before we continue forward. I would appreciate that my name would be cleared on this matter.
 

Beckie

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AS one of the fathers of dispensationalism i would think his words matter:
Scofields' note page 250 Sco ref Bible ,

turn thy captivity
The Palestinian Covenant gives the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise. It is important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land (cf. Gen_15:18; Num_34:1-12. The Palestinian Covenant is in seven parts.
Bible says
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Through out the forums words written by the fathers of movements are scrutinized, as should be, but we people tend to play favorites .
 
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Locoponydirtman

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AS one of the fathers of dispensationalism i would think his words matter:
Scofields' note page 250 Sco ref Bible ,

turn thy captivity
The Palestinian Covenant gives the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise. It is important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land (cf. Gen_15:18; Num_34:1-12. The Palestinian Covenant is in seven parts.
Bible says
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Through out the forums words written by the fathers of movements are scrutinized, as should be, but we people tend to play favorites .
I dont understand how it is that you dont see that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Jesus.