Works of the Law

[Goliath]

As soon as you mention 'sin' and the word 'repent', the problem of interpretation rises in difficulty.

Yeah, it would've been nice if the Bible had come with a dictionary, written by those who wrote the bible. I don't expect you to believe me, and I would probably lose some respect for you if you did...but my teachings come from the Holy Spirit, not from my pea brain.
Repent...means to turn away from the sinful nature, the nature in which we are born. It's more a word of instruction...
Repenting is a word of acting upon the instruction. When Jesus was tempted by Satan...fighting against that temptation, that is a perfect example of someone repenting. Obviously it's not quite that easy for us, because we have not been born of God. Jesus loved his Father and this is why he was able to defeat him.
When someone is brought into Repentance, this describes a change of their motivation. Fear is the motivation we begin with when we repent, but when Love becomes our motivation for our obedience to God...This is being brought into repentance.

May I ask you to explain the following two verses?
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all offenses.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

Glad to....
We are all born into sin, therefore we are born into a nature that Hates God and Hates our brother.
The verses seem to imply that God will forgive us for sin...when we do acts of righteousness...but that's not the meaning at all.
What does it mean?
Love is how we defeat Satan, and those who defeat Satan are referred to by John, as Overcomers.
Which is simply another term for those who are Born Again. And love covers a multitude of sin...because our past sins and indiscretions no longer matter after we are born again. It's a change of our nature...when we go from being Slaves of sin...into being Slaves of righteousness. As the Bible says...We have become a New Creation.
Unfortunately many call themselves overcomers...when they have not even been brought into repentance, much less born of God. And my brother, I will tell you this...(1 John 3:9-10) KJV is the perfect definition of telling us how we will know, when we have been born again. Until one fits this description....they are only fooling themselves.

 

[Goliath]

Now I understand where you are coming from at least.
But your understanding of the highlighted verses is also incorrect. But at least I understand how you have arrived at your conclusion.
You may want to read 1st John 1 a little closer before you believe people can be sinless.
I realize you are well intentioned towards me but your zeal is without knowledge.

Cameron,
I see you as my brother, lost is the same maze of doctrines I was in when I was your age. You think I am wrong, and that's natural when you don't agree with someone. You see, Truth does not come through reading the Bible. The proof of this is all the different interpretations creating the different doctrines, which created the maze.

Do me a favor....Go to God and confess your sins and ask Gods forgiveness. Then come back and tell me, there were no noticeable results.

 

[TMS]

We seem to agree about justification by grace. But when we are told to not use this grace as an excuse to transgress the law, but rather establish it, i seem to be, from what some of you have said, not understanding things right ..
Rom 6:1,15...
Jesus wants to free us from sin...
Which means giving us the victory and enabling us to overcome.
Grace and obediance (works) are gifts from Jesus.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

More baloney from Goliath. So here are the actual words of Christ which refute your heresy of salvation by works: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26). This is only one of dozens of similar verses.

Now where did Jesus include "good works" and "works of the Law" in this statement?????

Nehemia, jesus also said;

John 14:21 (KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

also;

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Beleiving, yes then doing as Jesus asks us to do is also important.

Blessings

 

[Goliath]

Now I understand where you are coming from at least.
But your understanding of the highlighted verses is also incorrect. But at least I understand how you have arrived at your conclusion.
You may want to read 1st John 1 a little closer before you believe people can be sinless.
I realize you are well intentioned towards me but your zeal is without knowledge.

My conclusion?...LOL. My conclusion as you call it...was written by one of the Lords disciples.
Tell me brother, If I asked you, How does someone know they have been born again?...what sign would you give them, so they have no doubts?

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Your lack of understanding is why you think this line of reasoning is untenable. You think Jesus is telling him he can garner eternal life by keeping the commandments. What Jesus is doing is showing him that's a bad route to choose because he has, in fact, not actually kept all the commandments.
After saying he had kept all the commandments, the rich young ruler asks what does he lack. Jesus tells him to sell all he has. So I ask you again, what commandment did the rich young ruler break by not selling all his goods?
Can you please answer this question?

Cameron please read carefully the words of jesus below, Jesus did ask his believers to keep the commandments, by commandments i mean the 10 commandments not the 613, many of these were for other purpose such as purification rites for the levites, there are not for the general population but the 10 commandments are for all to follow. even Paul says to follow the commandments.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, beingyet present with you.

We cannot cherry pick a verse here or there to make a point but have to look at the big picture; throughout the bible if not in all the books of the bible, the commandments are most important, revered, and cherished!

Blesings.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

He seems to be an adherent to life through the law, and not by grace. So he attempts to force the new covenant into the old. He's merely putting new wine in old wineskins and doesn't understand why they keep bursting. Sounds like a great candidate for our prayers.

Did the lord tell us not to judge?

Judging Others
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is a free gift and we can not do anything to save ourselves, we can't add to the gift so no boasting on our part.

Mat 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These people believed in Jesus and even done many works in Jesus's name but they were not saved.

These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved (vs. 23) so they were not genuine believers. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. (John 6:40)

I believe it is 100% grace but i also believe that Jesus wants to transform us, which involves writting His law on our hearts.

You basically believe in salvation "by grace plus law, faith plus works."

 

[mailmandan]

Mat 7:23-24
23 And then will I profess unto them,
(Those that believe in Jesus), I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jesus never knew these many people and condemns them which means they were never saved (Matthew 7:23) yet you say they are believers? John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

Jas 2:19-20
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Believing, yes then doing as Jesus asks us to do is also important.

Absolutely. But when someone comes along and claims that one can be saved by doing the works of the Law (or any good works) that person is self-deceived and trying to deceive others. Salvation is by grace through faith + NOTHING.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Every false religion is based upon salvation through good works. But Bible Christianity rejects that idea altogether. It is purely because of the grace of God and the perfect finished work of Christ that we are saved. Eternal life is A GIFT of God to undeserving sinners.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How does someone know they have been born again?

Definitely not by doing the works of the Law.

 

[Goliath]

Definitely not by doing the works of the Law.

Well then...please share your words of wisdom with us. I ask you the same question..

 

[studentoftheword]

Goliath said:
How does someone know they have been born again?

I say -----you should feel that a veil has been lifted from your eyes and you see the way you acted before was not the right way -----you should feel a joy that comes into your heart that you cannot explain ----you should feel a peace in your Inner man that was not there before -----the peace you feel in this world is not the same as the peace you should feel when your become Born Again -----it is like a great calmness has taken you over and you feel like a different person --------

The experience is different for each person but there should be a change in you that goes beyond your worldly intellect and you can't explain it exactly but you feel it in your inner self ------

My experience was profound ---for me and I had an immediate Character change ---so drastic that all my family and close friends were astounded at how much I had changed in my moods ---my character ---my outlook on life and my clam and peaceful mannerisms -----I felt so different and I will never go back to the way I was ----as I was a Really hateful ---stubborn ----spoiled person who thought that the world was wrong and I was right in what I did and said ------I hated criticism and would retaliate with a vengeance ------I was never really at peace with myself -----So it was easy for people who knew me to see the change in me ------

 

[Mem]

Everybody's "dead." You are either dead in Christ so therefore are "born again" and awaiting your body to be caught up to your spirit, which is alive in Christ, or you are performing "dead works" and just waiting for your body to ultimately (catch up? synchronize?) with your (dead) spirit.
That the devil can "steal your soul" is a misleading idiom since he can only really been given your mind, and hence your body but he can never possess your spirit because that is God's, and only God's, to give or take, and there is no "soul" without that component.
And, as I understand it, the devil will (repossess?) your natural body, and your spirit will return to God, and your mind (logical faculties) is left for you (for a time, and perhaps this is that window of grace?) to make the choice of faith in Christ's work or your own.

So you know you are born again when you make that choice to believe that Jesus is Messiah come in the flesh to redeem you from you sin, and are dead, still, if you insist on self-redemption.

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron,
I see you as my brother, lost is the same maze of doctrines I was in when I was your age. You think I am wrong, and that's natural when you don't agree with someone. You see, Truth does not come through reading the Bible. The proof of this is all the different interpretations creating the different doctrines, which created the maze.

Do me a favor....Go to God and confess your sins and ask Gods forgiveness. Then come back and tell me, there were no noticeable results.

Lol..you are no better at personal discernment than you are biblical discernment.
I was once lost, but now I'm found.
Was blind, but now I see.

 

[Cameron143]

Did the lord tell us not to judge?

Judging Others
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

The warning is not to avoid judgment, but to be careful in judgment because we will be judged in the same manner we judge.
1 Corinthians 2 teaches spiritual people to judge all things. We have the mind of Christ. We are to employ it.
I'm judging him based on what he has written. He believes Christians no longer sin. That is incorrect doctrine. He also seems to believe that salvation can be attained through works. Praying for someone in that estate is loving them.

 

[evyaniy]

The work and will of YAH

John 6:28-29

They said therefore to Him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of EL?"
Yahshua answered them, "This is the work of EL, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent."

6:37-40

37 All those whom the Father gives Me will come to Me. He who comes to Me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him Who sent Me. 39 This is the will of My Father Who sent Me, that of all He has given to Me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the One Who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron please read carefully the words of jesus below, Jesus did ask his believers to keep the commandments, by commandments i mean the 10 commandments not the 613, many of these were for other purpose such as purification rites for the levites, there are not for the general population but the 10 commandments are for all to follow. even Paul says to follow the commandments.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, beingyet present with you.

We cannot cherry pick a verse here or there to make a point but have to look at the big picture; throughout the bible if not in all the books of the bible, the commandments are most important, revered, and cherished!

Blesings.

By works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You can try your best to live according to the commandments, you can be a very nice person, you can witness every day of your life, but if you are counting on those things to get you into heaven you will hear...depart from me. You won't get in.
Salvation is based on the work of Christ in His life and death. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Aaron56]

Those who believe we must follow the Law today, as believers in Christ, have daddy issues: unresolved conflict with authority. They use the Law to hold God to account: “I’ve done thus and such for you, God, now do thus and such for me.” It’s a child’s folly. But curable if desired.

 

[evyaniy]

Romans 8:1-11 HNV with some edits.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah Yahshua, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yahshua made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, EL did, sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward EL, for it is not subject to EL's Torah, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please EL.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of EL dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Messiah, he is not His. 10 If Messiah is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Yahshua from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised up Messiah Yahshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.