Works of the Law

[Aaron56]

If this is true, why does God discipline those he loves when they sin?? Isn't disciple punishment??
(Hebrews 12:4-11)

I was actually paraphrasing this scripture:

"..our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father..."

And no, "discipline" is not punishment for a sin. Discipline is to narrow, to make true. We might say "Man! The coach put us through a punishing workout today!" that is not an indication of fault. It is a regimen to improve our performance at the hands of a coach who desires to see us grow and mature.

A father who loves his children, will do the same thing: discipline them. Teach them the value of hard work, consistency, honesty, integrity, etc. And all this so that they might mature.

That is how were are to regard Hebrews 12:4-11.

 

[hornetguy]

what does He command?

Well, he commanded his apostles to go into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in Jesus name, and teach them to obey everything he commanded us to do....
He also spoke of the two greatest commandments.... love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself....

 

[Beckie]

I didn't say, he didn't teach Grace..,I said he never used the word Grace. But I can see where you drew that conclusion. Jesus did teach Grace....But where did you find his teachings on Grace?

In the Whole of the Scriptures . From the Garden to today.

 

[Evmur]

Well, he commanded his apostles to go into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in Jesus name, and teach them to obey everything he commanded us to do....
He also spoke of the two greatest commandments.... love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself....

He said that to a lawyer who was testing Him "upon these 2 hang all the law and the prophets" then He said "do this and live"

I dunno mebbe it's me but it kind of suggests to me that the Lawyer hitherto had not been doing it, nobody does, just think of poor Peter when Jesus grilled him "lovest thou Me?" 3 times Peter denied Him and 3 times Jesus grilled him,

We do not love like what we oughta and God knows it, we don't have that love unless God pours it into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

"not that we loved God but that He loved us"

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why do you believe Paul taught, "Not by Works, but by Grace", when Jesus Christ didn't?
Why do you believe Pauls teachings on "Grace", are foundational teachings, when in the Gospel of Christ, Jesus never even said the word?

It’s very important, especially in these days of globally excepted immorality, for all believers to discernibly understand why Paul taught it.

What saved this woman ? Her works ? Or Gods grace ?

“And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:3-5, 7, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This woman wasn’t saved by the law she was condemned by the law and commanded to be put to death by the law she was as good as dead in that society. What saved her ?

and what saved this sinful woman ?

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:47-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul and the apostles all believed the gospel and they understood Jesus saved people by his grace and through faith

 

[HopeinHim98]

What saved this woman ? Her works ? Or Gods grace ?

“And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:3-5, 7, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This woman wasn’t saved by the law she was condemned by the law and commanded to be put to death by the law she was as good as dead in that society. What saved her ?

and what saved this sinful woman ?

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:47-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul and the apostles all believed the gospel and they understood Jesus saved people by his grace and through faith

I was thinking too of this account in relation to the OP.

 

[wattie]

Brother...I wholeheartedly agree, Paul did not contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ.
But the teachings of Grace in the Church today, those teachings can not be reconciled with what Jesus taught in his Gospel. If I am wrong...show me where Jesus taught that Grace does not require our obedience to God.

Obedience isn't binding on receiving eternal life... that is what the book of John shows.. as do Paul's letters. Obedience is a right response.. but not the means of receiving eternal life.

Jesus commanding us in obedience is only possible if we have already been delivered from sin. If sin has no power over us, is undone.. then we can obey.

Works have nothing to do with receiving eternal life. It's not possible to earn a place in heaven. They are though the 'reasonable service'.. given His grace in saving an individual.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I was thinking too of this account in relation to the OP.

amen how Jesus treated people like us just normal sinners that believe in him is so important to see in the gospel

we are all the adulterous woman we’ve all sinned and been found out and the law demands we be held to account and we all have to have his saving grace it’s the only way

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


….now what ? Only Gods grace that offers salvation only the gospel can save anyone now only Jesus arriving and saying “ I know all your sins d I don’t condemn you now go and repent and live “

only the gospel that was sent to all creatures can save us and th e gospel is full of Gods true saving grace that sounds like this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The idea is we’re all in the same boat as the adulterous woman we’re found sinners now we face a law that demands we die for our sins

wheres grace then ? Jesus became a man and suffered and died for all I had done wrong that condemned me d said to me “ you are a child of God forgiven , redeemer , your debt is paid in full now come and follow me and you will live in me “

thats grace Jesus coming to save those who condemned thier own selves by thier own works they deserve death but grace offers them life in its place

 

[Goliath]

Depends which commandments your talking about.

Also depends on whether the Holy Spirit has empowered you to implement the commandments.

We can't do it ourselves.

Interesting..
So you're saying it's Gods fault if you break his commandments, since he didn't empower you so you can keep his commandments.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Obedience isn't binding on receiving eternal life... that is what the book of John shows.. as do Paul's letters. Obedience is a right response.. but not the means of receiving eternal life.

Jesus commanding us in obedience is only possible if we have already been delivered from sin. If sin has no power over us, is undone.. then we can obey.

Works have nothing to do with receiving eternal life. It's not possible to earn a place in heaven. They are though the 'reasonable service'.. given His grace in saving an individual.

“Obedience isn't binding on receiving eternal life... that is what the book of John shows.. as do Paul's letters. Obedience is a right response.. but not the means of receiving eternal life.”

what happens if we are saved and then keep sinning though ? We’re saved ? There’s no difference in repenting and obeying Jesus

“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Goliath]

Neither of these Scriptures teach that anyone is save BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW! However, if you want to go that route God will expect 100% obedience to ALL the works of the Law from Exodus to Deuteronomy.

I never said you were under the Law of Moses...Did I??

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Interesting..
So you're saying it's Gods fault if you break his commandments, since he didn't empower you so you can keep his commandments.

“grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:2-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Goliath]

what does He command?

Brother....That's another excellent question!!
Gods Commandments are those he says he will put into our minds...and write them on Hearts. (Hebrews 10:16). They are Laws that are not written on paper or stone, but on your heart.
Those times when you feel guilty when you sin...why do you feel guilt?
(1 Timothy 1:19)

 

[Goliath]

The law came by Moses but grace and verity came by Jesus Christ . John. 1..

Why do you suppose he used Moses in that passage?
Its because both Jesus and Moses brought Gods covenants to the people.
We call the Old covenant the Law of Moses.
Now if Moses brought the Law, doesn't it stand to reason what Jesus brought in the comparative was called the Law of Christ?

I think Jesus taught grace but the apostles never really understood it until Paul taught it.

Well unfortunately many people share your opinion, that being....Paul was a better teacher than Jesus Christ.

 

[Evmur]

Brother....That's another excellent question!!
Gods Commandments are those he says he will put into our minds...and write them on Hearts. (Hebrews 10:16). They are Laws that are not written on paper or stone, but on your heart.
Those times when you feel guilty when you sin...why do you feel guilt?
(1 Timothy 1:19)

You relate it to sin?

My sins were once forever dealt with at the cross, yes I beg pardon but I am no longer in sin territory. I have been translated out of the devil's domain and am now planted in God's glorious kingdom.

I relate this working of the Holy Spirit to guidance, to teaching, to wisdom to knowledge. To comfort.

That still small voice has saved my life many times.

 

[Goliath]

Obedience isn't binding on receiving eternal life... that is what the book of John shows.. as do Paul's letters. Obedience is a right response.. but not the means of receiving eternal life.

Why do you think Jesus mentioned Works to the seven churches if works are without value?
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

 

[Goliath]

Faith in Christs righteousness is what saves us, but works will naturally come as a result of Jesus living in you.
Obediance is a delight when the Spirit is abiding in you.

According to the Author of salvation.....Does salvation come before obedience?
(John 14:23)
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[Goliath]

You relate it to sin?

My sins were once forever dealt with at the cross, yes I beg pardon but I am no longer in sin territory. I have been translated out of the devil's domain and am now planted in God's glorious kingdom.

I relate this working of the Holy Spirit to guidance, to teaching, to wisdom to knowledge. To comfort.

That still small voice has saved my life many times.

And what are Jesus' commandments? Are you suggesting that it's the 10 Commandments that Jesus is referring to?

No...

 

[Goliath]

What does this have to do with being saved by the works of the Law?

I never said we are saved by the Works of the Law. We are saved by Gods Grace given to those who keep his commandments.

 

[Evmur]

Why do you suppose he used Moses in that passage?
Its because both Jesus and Moses brought Gods covenants to the people.
We call the Old covenant the Law of Moses.
Now if Moses brought the Law, doesn't it stand to reason what Jesus brought in the comparative was called the Law of Christ?

Well unfortunately many people share your opinion, that being....Paul was a better teacher than Jesus Christ.

I know where you are, and I know where you are wrong.

You can't mix law and grace. They militate one against the other. You can't even have a mixture of both law and grace which is what about 80% of Christians have.

You have to have done with the law altogether.

There was a church, the Israel of God before ever the law was given. Abraham is the father of our faith not Moses. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. This faith came purely by God's grace.

We are saved in the exact same way. We believed unto righteousness. Paul calls it the righteousness of God, YOU are trying to establish your own righteousness. The law came later because of sin, it was only ever meant to be a temporary arrangement until Jesus came. He IS our righteousness. We have His life.

IF we have His life and His life is being manifest in us we will do no wrong.

Make way, clear out the clutter, only let Jesu's life shine in you. Now you're talking discipleship.