Ukraine the bad guy?

[HeIsHere]

So, I would do that- but first I took a look at who Timothy Snyder actually is: and what I found, is that he's a political hack (imo) and probably a globalist. His cynical evaluation of MAGA populism is a gross, gross, gross mischaracterization; and if he can't objectively evaluate a movement in his own country, why would I think he can evaluate the geopolitical in and outs of Ukraine?

Agree, I listened to some of his lectures from before he become famous, while he once was a good historian he has chosen bias and popularity over truth and facts.

Shortly after the 2016 election, he published On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century, in which he warned Americans that Trump could launch a fascist revolution. The book disturbed many historians, who believed that Snyder was trafficking in alarmism. But Snyder reaped a small fortune from his prophecy, despite the gathering authoritarian gloom, establishing himself as the liberal media’s resident credentialed doomsayer.

Source

 

[JohnDB]

Russia invaded and has taken property and resources from a sovereign nation.

The USA has a 20+ year old treaty/contract to aide Ukraine if they were attacked by another nation and their sovereignty was at stake. (Fairly fresh as things go)

These two facts alone are more than enough justification for aiding Ukraine.

Doesn't matter if Ukraine's government has corruption or even traitors of their people....that is an Ukraine internal matter and not our concern. (We will snitch to Ukraine on their corrupt leaders)

The whole "nazi" thing has more to do with history and economics than actual hatred of Jews and world domination. Zelinsky is part Jewish himself. And Germany has given Ukraine Panzer tanks to fight off Russia. When the last time panzer tanks were in Ukraine it was for world domination by Germany. This whole claim of Nazi is more about Russian prejudices and bigotry than Ukranians. Russia just gave away Crimean generational homes to those "now russians" of Asian descent(not conscripted into being soldiers)to get them out of proper Russia. Because to Russia...neither of those two groups of people matter at all.

You are spouting almost verbatim Russian propaganda. You claim that you want to save lives...but the truth is that Russia only cares about certain people...those in Crimea and Ukrain, Chechnya, Romania, and Myanmar are completely expendable. They really have a track record of atrocities against each and every one of these people groups.

 

[HeIsHere]

Russia invaded and has taken property and resources from a sovereign nation.

The USA has a 20+ year old treaty/contract to aide Ukraine if they were attacked by another nation and their sovereignty was at stake. (Fairly fresh as things go)

These two facts alone are more than enough justification for aiding Ukraine.

Doesn't matter if Ukraine's government has corruption or even traitors of their people....that is an Ukraine internal matter and not our concern. (We will snitch to Ukraine on their corrupt leaders)

The whole "nazi" thing has more to do with history and economics than actual hatred of Jews and world domination. Zelinsky is part Jewish himself. And Germany has given Ukraine Panzer tanks to fight off Russia. When the last time panzer tanks were in Ukraine it was for world domination by Germany. This whole claim of Nazi is more about Russian prejudices and bigotry than Ukranians. Russia just gave away Crimean generational homes to those "now russians" of Asian descent(not conscripted into being soldiers)to get them out of proper Russia. Because to Russia...neither of those two groups of people matter at all.

You are spouting almost verbatim Russian propaganda. You claim that you want to save lives...but the truth is that Russia only cares about certain people...those in Crimea and Ukrain, Chechnya, Romania, and Myanmar are completely expendable. They really have a track record of atrocities against each and every one of these people groups.

The USA/NATO is not aiding Ukraine, they are ensuring its demise.

Seems to me like a double standard, the USA comes close to starting a nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis over nukes near its border, but Russia cannot raise the same concerns when NATO continue to expand is border, something that was also promised would not happen.

You only present one side of the conflict.

 

[JohnDB]

This may all be true, but this conflict must be viewed from the dismantling of USSR forward and the USA's geopolitical ambitions in that arena.

I think that Ukraine and Russia could have continued to co-exist, with Ukraine being a buffer state bewteen NATO and Russia, however the USA and its military industrial complex had different ambitions.

So if you think this is the an continuation of some historical conflict between Russia and Ukraine only you would be wrong.

Ukraine has been manipulated into this conflict by NATO and the USA.

Again wrong.
NATO is a DEFENSIVE treaty...one against offensive attacks and as such has DEFENSIVE weapons. Not offensive.

And yes there is a huge difference between the two even though you really (and Putin claims) don't know the difference.

There are no expeditionary amphibious assault teams for NATO...nor Expeditionary team training at all....because those teams are for invading. And there are certain weapons that go with assault invasion teams that defensive teams don't get.

Remember Iraq invasion? Power, Command and control, communications, radar were all primary targets of our troops. And when Russia invaded Ukraine they did the same thing. However, we haven't given Ukraine any of the specialized weapons to do any of that and NATO doesn't have any....ever!

 

[HeIsHere]

Again wrong.
NATO is a DEFENSIVE treaty...one against offensive attacks and as such has DEFENSIVE weapons. Not offensive.

And yes there is a huge difference between the two even though you really (and Putin claims) don't know the difference.

There are no expeditionary amphibious assault teams for NATO...nor Expeditionary team training at all....because those teams are for invading. And there are certain weapons that go with assault invasion teams that defensive teams don't get.

Remember Iraq invasion? Power, Command and control, communications, radar were all primary targets of our troops. And when Russia invaded Ukraine they did the same thing. However, we haven't given Ukraine any of the specialized weapons to do any of that and NATO doesn't have any....ever!

Is it really, is that we have the dismantling of Yugoslavia by NATO.

Yugoslavia had not attacked any NATO member, yet this did not stop this “defensive” alliance from launching an offensive war on Yugoslavia and facilitating its dismemberment.

https://www.icty.org/en/press/final...-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal


NATO may be once was defensive but it really is not.

 

[JohnDB]

The USA/NATO is not aiding Ukraine, they are ensuring its demise.

Seems to me like a double standard, the USA comes close to starting a nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis over nukes near its border, but Russia cannot raise the same concerns when NATO continue to expand is border, something that was also promised would not happen.

You only present one side of the conflict.

Russia was invading sovereign countries during the 60's and busy becoming the USSR....just like Germany did 20 years previously. And then they were parking nuclear weapons at our front door to intimidate us into surrendering our sovereignty to them.
If the US government had finished what it was in process of doing there would not be any Russian people today. Which is the ONLY reason why they began begging for the US to stop and that they would immediately remove their missiles.

 

[JohnDB]

Is it really, is that we have the dismantling of Yugoslavia by NATO.

Yugoslavia had not attacked any NATO member, yet this did not stop this “defensive” alliance from launching an offensive war on Yugoslavia and facilitating its dismemberment.

https://www.icty.org/en/press/final...-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal


NATO may be once was defensive but it really is not.

Wow....you really don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[HeIsHere]

Russia was invading sovereign countries during the 60's and busy becoming the USSR....just like Germany did 20 years previously. And then they were parking nuclear weapons at our front door to intimidate us into surrendering our sovereignty to them.
If the US government had finished what it was in process of doing there would not be any Russian people today. Which is the ONLY reason why they began begging for the US to stop and that they would immediately remove their missiles.

You disagree with facts from the Tribunal, what is the matter did it upset your paradigm of good NATO versus evil Russia.

Good day sir, I have nothing further to discuss with you.

 

[JohnDB]

Is it really, is that we have the dismantling of Yugoslavia by NATO.

Yugoslavia had not attacked any NATO member, yet this did not stop this “defensive” alliance from launching an offensive war on Yugoslavia and facilitating its dismemberment.

https://www.icty.org/en/press/final...-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal


NATO may be once was defensive but it really is not.

The NATO bombing was again a request by a sovereign government that had been invaded by another nation to assist in the stopping of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

 

[JohnDB]

You disagree with facts from the Tribunal, what is the matter did it upset your paradigm of good NATO versus evil Russia.

Good day sir, I have nothing further to discuss with you.

Uhhhh....yeah I disagree....especially with the facts so plainly laid out as I have done.

Just because you have a communist propaganda view of world history doesn't mean that I do.

 

[HeIsHere]

Wow....you really don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

No, sir you are out of touch with the real war here. Good day.

1. The Attack on the Chinese Embassy on 7/5/99

80. On 7/5/99, at 2350, NATO aircraft fired several missiles which hit the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 Chinese citizens, injuring an estimated 15 others, and causing extensive damage to the embassy building and other buildings in the immediate surrounds. At the moment of the attack, fifty people were reported to have been in the embassy buildings. By the admission of US Government sources, the Chinese Embassy compound was mistakenly hit. The bombing occurred because at no stage in the process was it realised that the bombs were aimed at the Chinese Embassy. The Embassy had been wrongly identified as the Yugoslav Federal Directorate for Supply and Procurement (Yugoimport FDSP) at 2 Umetnosti Boulevard in New Belgrade. The FDSP was deemed by the CIA to be a legitimate target due to its role in military procurement: it was selected for its role in support of the Yugoslav military effort.

 

[HeIsHere]

The NATO bombing was again a request by a sovereign government that had been invaded by another nation to assist in the stopping of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Does not sound defensive to me.

 

[HeIsHere]

Uhhhh....yeah I disagree....especially with the facts so plainly laid out as I have done.

Just because you have a communist propaganda view of world history doesn't mean that I do.

You have a very, very over simplified view of power structures, history and geopolitics, no wonder the world is such a mess.

 

[cv5]

Russia invaded and has taken property and resources from a sovereign nation.

The USA has a 20+ year old treaty/contract to aide Ukraine if they were attacked by another nation and their sovereignty was at stake. (Fairly fresh as things go)

These two facts alone are more than enough justification for aiding Ukraine.

Doesn't matter if Ukraine's government has corruption or even traitors of their people....that is an Ukraine internal matter and not our concern. (We will snitch to Ukraine on their corrupt leaders)

The whole "nazi" thing has more to do with history and economics than actual hatred of Jews and world domination. Zelinsky is part Jewish himself. And Germany has given Ukraine Panzer tanks to fight off Russia. When the last time panzer tanks were in Ukraine it was for world domination by Germany. This whole claim of Nazi is more about Russian prejudices and bigotry than Ukranians. Russia just gave away Crimean generational homes to those "now russians" of Asian descent(not conscripted into being soldiers)to get them out of proper Russia. Because to Russia...neither of those two groups of people matter at all.

You are spouting almost verbatim Russian propaganda. You claim that you want to save lives...but the truth is that Russia only cares about certain people...those in Crimea and Ukrain, Chechnya, Romania, and Myanmar are completely expendable. They really have a track record of atrocities against each and every one of these people groups.

Uh huh. Is that why the West blew up the Nord stream pipeline?

Or was this the reason: (a doctrine which has evolved somewhat since then)....?

The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated the organization's goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down".

The US blew up the pipeline to insure that German/Russian relations (which were ENTIRELY FRIENDLY per Angela Merkel...."Russia was a dependable partner") would never improve to the extent of mutually beneficial prosperity, thereby risking US hegemony. Demonizing Russia is a crucial aspect of this doctrine, and inciting the sheeples to foster this attitude has become a propaganda full-court press.

You do realize that Scholz was entertaining the possibility of a brokered peace in Ukraine BEFORE that incident......correct?
Until the US nullified that option in dramatic fashion. A slap in the face to an ally that the German lap dogs took without so much as a whimper. Adn now guess what? The US now sells gas to Germany at a spectacular profit. Replacing Russia gas!

 

[cv5]

Russia was invading sovereign countries during the 60's and busy becoming the USSR....just like Germany did 20 years previously. And then they were parking nuclear weapons at our front door to intimidate us into surrendering our sovereignty to them.
If the US government had finished what it was in process of doing there would not be any Russian people today. Which is the ONLY reason why they began begging for the US to stop and that they would immediately remove their missiles.

The US basically won that conflict in a very real sense. And Russia is no longer communist. So what is the beef now?

Well.....if there is not a conflict to suit their ambitions, they will create one. The west perceives Russia as a rival mob boss (with nukes) and want to knock them off. Simple as that.

The West touts their profoundly righteous "rules based order". Which means they make the rules and give the orders. And they have no qualms about wrecking any nation that says or does otherwise.

Your absurd notions of "right" and "wrong", "good guys" and "bad guys" is infantile IMO. If this were truly the case, the West would have invaded Saudi Arabia and any number of totalitarian vassal nations by now.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Actually this Timothy Snyder guy himself says that the Maidan and the Russia/Ukrainian conflict needs to be viewed as part of a greater European conflict. He says that viewing it as only a Russian Ukrainian conflict misses the point.

He is also smart enough to recognize that populists existed before Putin . We don't repeat Kremlin propaganda- Kremlin propaganda largely repeats us, not the other way around. Do I actually believe that Putin cares about American populists??? Of course not!!!!
That Russia's foreign policy coincides with populism does not mean that I embrace Russia, or am even taking their side. I am not.

He really seems to have an understanding of both perspectives on the war: he understands the Russian side, and the globalist perspective (which he calls the perspective of "civilized society"): and he just happens to believe in "civilized society"; but the problem with that is that Ukraine had just proved they were not part of civilized society by overthrowing their own government .

 

[JohnDB]

Uh huh. Is that why the West blew up the Nord stream pipeline?

Or was this the reason: (a doctrine which has evolved somewhat since then)....?

The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated the organization's goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down".

The US blew up the pipeline to insure that German/Russian relations (which were ENTIRELY FRIENDLY per Angela Merkel...."Russia was a dependable partner") would never improve to the extent of mutually beneficial prosperity, thereby risking US hegemony. Demonizing Russia is a crucial aspect of this doctrine, and inciting the sheeples to foster this attitude has become a propaganda full-court press.

You do realize that Scholz was entertaining the possibility of a brokered peace in Ukraine BEFORE that incident......correct?
Until the US nullified that option in dramatic fashion. A slap in the face to an ally that the German lap dogs took without so much as a whimper. Adn now guess what? The US now sells gas to Germany at a spectacular profit. Replacing Russia gas!

This sounds as nuts as the Lizard People administering Covid Vaccines as poison conspiracy theories.

As a nephew of an Uncle HEAVILY involved with true intelligence operations....
Nothing you are saying is remotely true.

 

[cv5]

As a nephew of an Uncle HEAVILY involved with true intelligence operations....
Nothing you are saying is remotely true.

Right. Coming from that guy that absolutely declared the leaked Ukraine war documents to be fakes.

 

[JohnDB]

Right. Coming from that guy that absolutely declared the leaked Ukraine war documents to be fakes.

Still do...

I really do. I predicted a lousy scape goat and guess what?

I'm kinda unimpressed with the scapegoat's story....they used to be a bit more creative. Not a lot...but a bit.

The submarine in the neighborhood of the pipelines...that one has another truth written ALL over it....but that's a story for another day.

Trust me when I say that US intelligence is a unique blend of keystone cops and idiot savants at work. Some of the real truth is unbelievable and fantastic stuff. Not much in the way of morals but they do follow orders well. And most especially they don't leave trails or get caught. So just because the whole world believes it because it's splashed on headlines everywhere...it is likely completely not true.

 

[cv5]

This sounds as nuts as the Lizard People administering Covid Vaccines as poison conspiracy theories.

As a nephew of an Uncle HEAVILY involved with true intelligence operations....
Nothing you are saying is remotely true.

The entire universe knows that the US and allies blew up the pipeline. Grandpa Disaster himself said so on the air.

I have seen the ACTUAL evidence. Including the aircraft types and flight paths. And naval vessels. It all adds up.....

The Russian sub theory is patently absurd. Do you know how shallow the water is at this location? And how much surveillance there is? Even more absurd is the preposterous notion that the Russians blew up their own revenue stream.