Not By Works

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Cameron143 said:
Jesus says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. It's evidence, not striving.

Striving would be losing.
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Keeping His commandments is not being under Grace (His strength) but under the law.

And yes it is striving. Grace is resting in Him.
 
HeIsHere said:
Keeping His commandments is not being under Grace (His strength) but under the law.

And yes it is striving. Grace is resting in Him.
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I'm not arguing obedience as a condition of acceptance. I'm offering it as an evidence of it. Just as James argues that faith without works is dead.
You can continue to misconstrue what I'm saying if you like.
 
Needevidence said:
Im sorry if im going around in a circle - just trying to get my head around it. But - if 'salvation' is by
'faith' - and you have 'faith' - then you are saved technically. We love God but are weak and commit
sin (not necessarily serious sin like murder) but if you have faith you could even repent but do it
again and again due to your weak character and still have salvation. There must be some following
of the law - or are there different degrees of salvation - ie a more devoted follower is given more.
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Romans13-10es.png

Romans 13:10
:)
 
Cameron143 said:
I'm not arguing obedience as a condition of acceptance. I'm offering it as an evidence of it. Just as James argues that faith without works is dead.
You can continue to misconstrue what I'm saying if you like.
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Yes I know the argument is often about evidence of faith such a problem for the church these days.

Dead means inoperative, not being used, it does not mean non-existent.

A "faith" that James is describing as "dead" logically was once alive, since I do not believe salvation can be lost or forfeited James is describing a faith that is not being put to use.

@wattie and I have it right, just sayin. :)
 
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HeIsHere said:
Yes I know the argument is often about evidence of faith such a problem for the church these days.

Dead means inoperative, not being used, it does not mean non-existent.

A "faith" that James is describing as "dead" logically was once alive, since I do not believe salvation can be lost or forfeited James is describing a faith that is not being put to use.

@wattie and I have it right, just sayin. :)
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Honestly, I don't have a clue what you are on about. I believe grace, and grace alone saves. I never suggested anything that contradicted that. And being right shouldn't accrue any sense of accomplishment for you. That, too, is owing to grace.
 
Cameron143 said:
Honestly, I don't have a clue what you are on about. I believe grace, and grace alone saves. I never suggested anything that contradicted that. And being right shouldn't accrue any sense of accomplishment for you. That, too, is owing to grace.
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I was just having fun, hence the smiley face.

There is grace after salvation that is the topic along with a faith that is "dead" which is not equal to "they never were never saved."
Alright moving on. Have a good day.:)
 
Needevidence said:
Hi - I apologies if I have not understood properly, just trying to get my head around things. Yes, you have to have 'faith' but if you have faith, you will follow what’s right and not wrong as much as you can (not saying that on the way we do not fault).

Jesus says he came to fulfil – I understand that as continue and complete not change. In Matt. 5:17 - 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

John 14:15: “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." [the commandments given before which he is to fulfil]

Rev 2:16 - 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

Repent – can only be if you lapse you ask for forgiveness of any sins – otherwise ‘Repent’ is pointless if faith alone is sufficient.
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Thanks for the reply. Key words are repent, believe and faith.

When God decided to have mercy on Israel, He repented.

That doesn't mean God did wrong and had to turn from His ways.

It was a change of mind.

So at salvation for a sinner.. repent is a 'change of heart, mind'... Not a work of effort to reduce sin.

Before someone is converted there is nothing they can do as a dead in sin being to attain salvation.

What is always boils down to is salvation Vs service... The difference between them.

I believe if we mix up service in salvation it's not making salvation about God.

So it's not saying 'im saved..now I can do whatever I want '... But Jesus saved me... Not by my efforts.. but by His grace alone ... Absolute unconditional love.

What is my response?
 
wattie said:
Thanks for the reply. Key words are repent, believe and faith.

When God decided to have mercy on Israel, He repented.

That doesn't mean God did wrong and had to turn from His ways.

It was a change of mind.

So at salvation for a sinner.. repent is a 'change of heart, mind'... Not a work of effort to reduce sin.

Before someone is converted there is nothing they can do as a dead in sin being to attain salvation.

What is always boils down to is salvation Vs service... The difference between them.

I believe if we mix up service in salvation it's not making salvation about God.

So it's not saying 'im saved..now I can do whatever I want '... But Jesus saved me... Not by my efforts.. but by His grace alone ... Absolute unconditional love.

What is my response?
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Thanks for your reply

Not sure that God needs to 'repent' - who would he repent to himself?

absolute unconditional love /grace- I beleive in Jesus as our savior - however, where's the line drawn - I can do whatever I want up to what point?

If there is No Law - then how can we sin?

So I can commit adultery / fornication etc... as there is no law!
 
Needevidence said:
Thanks for your reply

Not sure that God needs to 'repent' - who would he repent to himself?

absolute unconditional love /grace- I beleive in Jesus as our savior - however, where's the line drawn - I can do whatever I want up to what point?

If there is No Law - then how can we sin?

So I can commit adultery / fornication etc... as there is no law!
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For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age

Titus 2 11:12
 
Needevidence said:
Thanks for your reply

Not sure that God needs to 'repent' - who would he repent to himself?

absolute unconditional love /grace- I beleive in Jesus as our savior - however, where's the line drawn - I can do whatever I want up to what point?

If there is No Law - then how can we sin?

So I can commit adultery / fornication etc... as there is no law!
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Okay.. well in scripture.. God obviously does discipline and rebuke a believer who is being unfaithful. That makes it unlikely a believer will continue in sin. But sin doesn't unto eternal life.. because sin has been paid for. John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24... Romans 10.. Romans 5:8.. many many verses have justification by grace without the works of the law.

So there is consequence for sinnning after salvation. Rebuke, discipline, chastening from God. But He won't remove His indwelling presence in a believer.
 
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wattie said:
Okay.. well in scripture.. God obviously does discipline and rebuke a believer who is being unfaithful. That makes it unlikely a believer will continue in sin. But sin doesn't unto eternal life.. because sin has been paid for. John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24... Romans 10.. Romans 5:8.. many many verses have justification by grace without the works of the law.

So there is consequence for sinnning after salvation. Rebuke, discipline, chastening from God. But He won't remove His indwelling presence in a believer.
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Agree, as well, sin is destructive to oneself, I cannot understand why a Christian would make this argument of >>> no reason to not sin under grace.
 
Needevidence said:
This issue always seems to come up - specially when I have debates with others in particular Muslims - there simple reaction is - then you can do what ever you want - kill / rob etc... why worry if you believe in Jesus you are saved - I don't really have a clear cut answer.

Whats the point of repentence if we dont need to worry about our sins
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As you know Brother, Sister, friend us Christians do not murder, rob or rape anyone. It is against the fruit of the Spirit and God's Laws. Read or post II Peter 1

2 Peter 1
Easy-to-Read Version
1 Greetings from Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.

To all of you who share in the same valuable faith that we have. This faith was given to us because our God and Savior Jesus Christ always does what is good and right.

2 Grace and peace be given to you more and more, because now you know God and Jesus our Lord.

God Has Given Us Everything We Need
3 Jesus has the power of God. And his power has given us everything we need to live a life devoted to God. We have these things because we know him. Jesus chose us by his glory and goodness, 4 through which he also gave us the very great and rich gifts that he promised us. With these gifts you can share in being like God. And so you will escape the ruin that comes to people in the world because of the evil things they want.

5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love. 8 If all these things are in you and growing, you will never fail to be useful to God. You will produce the kind of fruit that should come from your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who don’t grow in these blessings are blind. They cannot see clearly what they have. They have forgotten that they were cleansed from their past sins.

10 My brothers and sisters, God called you and chose you to be his. Do your best to live in a way that shows you really are God’s called and chosen people. If you do all this, you will never fall. 11 And you will be given a very great welcome into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a kingdom that never ends.

12 You already know these things. You are very strong in the truth you have. But I am always going to help you remember them. 13 While I am still living here on earth, I think it is right for me to remind you of them. 14 I know that I must soon leave this body. Our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that. 15 I will try my best to make sure you remember these things even after I am gone.

We Saw Christ’s Glory
16 We told you about the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. We told you about his coming. The things we told you were not just clever stories that people invented. No, we saw the greatness of Jesus with our own eyes. 17 Jesus heard the voice of the great and glorious God. That was when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.” 18 And we heard that voice. It came from heaven while we were with Jesus on the holy mountain.[a]

19 This makes us more sure about what the prophets said. And it is good for you to follow closely what they said, which is like a light shining in a dark place. You have that light until the day begins and the morning star brings new light to your minds. 20 Most important of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures comes from the prophet’s own understanding. 21 No prophecy ever came from what some person wanted to say. But people were led by the Holy Spirit and spoke words from God.

Footnotes
2 Peter 1:18 This event is described in the Gospels. See Mt. 17:1-8; Mk. 9:2-8; Lk. 9:28-36.
 
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Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1 Corinthians 9:25
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

2 Timothy 2:5
And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
 
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