Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[awelight]

All sinners can be converted through the Gospel if all will repent and believe. After that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit who supernaturally REGENERATES the believer. That is the New Birth, when a person is born from above, born of the Spirit, born or God, or born again.
That is correct. The gift of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES the New Birth. Kindly notice the sequence of events in Ephesians 1:12-14: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is crystal clear from this passage that the Gospel comes first, then comes saving faith, then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then comes the sealing with the Spirit. "The redemption of the purchased possession" speaks of the ultimate perfection and glorification of the saints.
If by that you mean that the Gospel regenerates then that is not how it works. It is the Holy Spirit -- God Himself -- who regenerates a sinner and makes him or her a child of God. But the Gospel GENERATES saving faith and that is perfectly clear in Romans chapter 10. Therefore Paul says in Romans 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This is reinforced in Romans 16:25,26 where the Gospel brings about "the obedience of faith" (obedience to the Gospel): Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I thank you for your answers on questions 2 & 3; however, I don't agree with your interpretation of events in Eph. 1:12-14. Let's look at this in more detail:

Eph 1:12a to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory... - The nature of this statement says that something came before. What was "to the end" or "to the purpose of"? This takes us back to verse 11: Eph 1:11a in whom also we were made a heritage,... (We - believers, were made a heritage, [Past tense], which takes us back to Eph. 1:4. Therefore), Eph 1:11b ..having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; (God "chose" before the foundation of the world those who would be Christ's heritage and "foreordained" them according to His purpose... not our purpose.

Eph 1:12b ..we who had before hoped in Christ: (Herein meaning, Paul and the earliest believers who had first put their hope in Christ. This is contrasted and compared to the beginning of verse 13.).

Eph 1:13a in whom ye also,..(They who also believed later what they heard.), ..having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, (The Gospel points to Christ, for those that can hear and understand the message. Hearing and understanding means that their "nature", and "ability", have already been altered. They have already been "born from above" [John 3:1-10]. Eph 1:13b --in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, There are many stages of the Holy Spirits work in the redeemed. 1.) He Regenerates those who the Lord sends Him to - this produces a new nature. 2.) He helps guide us to Christ, through the Gospel. (The actual time difference between 1 & 2, might be milliseconds, for all we know - since step one is a completely mysterious work of the Spirit acting upon the sinner. 3.) The moment we "Repent" and "Believe", we are sealed by the Spirit - given to us as an "earnest" - a "promissory note" if you will; having the seal of our Great King of kings, until "ALL THINGS" are completed in Christ. (Eph. 1:10). 4.) Gifts of the Spirit are distributed unto believers as God sees fit.

Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory. ( "To the praise of His Glory" - takes us back to the beginning of this sentence. Did you know that Eph. 1:3-14, in the Greek, is one long, continuous sentence.

Lastly -- You did not really answer my #1 question. So I ask you again: What would be the purpose of being "born from above", if a person has the ability to repent and believe already?

 

[brightfame52]

So you are the judge of human hearts?
Its the job of Satan to falsely accuse the bretheren.
And thus bad fruit multiplies.

You have your nerve, you judging men, calvin if not mistaken. Im judging the fruit of your conversation, its all about a person, and its so you can reject the scripture that person is known to set forth, so its really the scripture you reject !

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think that no Christian can/will ever completely plumb the depts of the gospel even studying it throughout their entire lives - it is
a continuing never-ending spiritual process whereby we grow in spiritual wisdom. I'm not sure of the specific point you're making
but I think the verses below may provide another perspective. In other words, if they were able to taste that the Lord was gracious to them was symbolic of them being born-again - and being born-again was the prerequisite to their desiring the sincere milk of the gospel, which desire was given to them from that.

[1Pe 2:2-3 KJV]
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

[Act 17:11 KJV]
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.[/QUOTE

1 Cor 2:1-2 - Paul speaking to the church at Corinth, And I brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat (the gospel), for heatherto you are not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

To my understanding, the scriptures teach that the newborn babes in Christ, are much like newborn babies by natural birth, in that they have very little knowledge about anything, and have to little by little as they mature. One thing that they do know, is who their mother and father are.

Can you inform me how you would interpret Rom 10:1-3? Is Paul speaking to spiritual Israel, who have a zeal of God, and are eternally delivered, praying that they may be saved (delivered) from their ignorance of the gospel?

 

[rogerg]

'Can you inform me how you would interpret Rom 10:1-3? Is Paul speaking to spiritual Israel, who have a zeal of God, and are eternally delivered, praying that they may be saved (delivered) from their ignorance of the gospel? "

I believe the "they" of Rom 10:1 are actually the elect Jews identified by the "and might save some of them" of Rom 11:14: there are Jews who are of both the earthly Jewish religion/Israel but are also elect and of spiritual Israel, so I don't think Paul had either Israel in mind, but instead prayed for a certain subset of Jews - the elect Jews - prayed that he would provoke them to emulate him, although he might not have even known whom the "they" were. Neither do I think that Paul was praying for their deliverance from ignorance of the gospel because that is as a fruit of the Holy Spirit and accompanies becoming saved/born-again - so no prayer for that was needed.

[Rom 10:1 KJV] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

[Col 3:11 KJV] 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

'Can you inform me how you would interpret Rom 10:1-3? Is Paul speaking to spiritual Israel, who have a zeal of God, and are eternally delivered, praying that they may be saved (delivered) from their ignorance of the gospel? "

Hi Roger Im not sure who you are directing this question to, but I believe Paul is speaking of that jewish remnant according to the election of grace, and that he is desiring not their eternal salvation, that already an accomplished fact by the eternal purpose of God, but he is praying for their salvation of conversion.

Neither do I think that Paul was praying for their deliverance from ignorance of the gospel because that is as a fruit of the Holy Spirit and accompanies becoming saved/born-again - so no prayer for that was needed.

I may have to disagree with this, because I believe conversion consist in deliverance from Gospel ignorance unto belief of the Truth, which is a fruit of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13 but its also something appropriate to pray for, since its praying according to the will of God, its Gods will that all His elect be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe for the most part we agree on this matter.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect; anda. the act or effect of him who gives, in such a sense that what he is said διδόναι (either absolutely or with the dative of person) he is conceived of as effecting, or as becoming its author …​

​

or​

​

b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18;​

vs 31 – God was ready to give repentance to those who slew and hanged on a tree the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 32 – the same Greek word [didomi] is used in this verse whom God hath given to them that obey him ... and what were they asked to do? ... receive the repentance given by God.

As Paul preached He , Jesus was raised a Saviour to Israel, Gods elect according to promise Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

... Acts 13:23 does not respond to the fact that the Greek word didōmi in Acts 5:31 denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given).

Acts 5:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give [Greek didōmi] repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given [Greek didōmi] to them that obey him.

vs 31 – God was ready to give repentance to those who slew and hanged on a tree the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 32 – the same Greek word [didōmi] is used in this verse whom God hath given to them that obey him ... and what were they asked to do? ... receive the repentance given by God.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[rogerg]

roger



Hi Roger Im not sure who you are directing this question to, but I believe Paul is speaking of that jewish remnant according to the election of grace, and that he is desiring not their eternal salvation, that already an accomplished fact by the eternal purpose of God, but he is praying for their salvation of conversion.



I may have to disagree with this, because I believe conversion consist in deliverance from Gospel ignorance unto belief of the Truth, which is a fruit of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13 but its also something appropriate to pray for, since its praying according to the will of God, its Gods will that all His elect be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe for the most part we agree on this matter.

Hi brightfame52, thanks for your reply - it's a fairly complex point and one that I'll need to ponder further.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 ... you claim the word "turned" is "used in the active voice but subjunctive".

So, you agree the verb is in the active voice, but then because it's in the subjunctive mood ... voilà ... the active becomes passive???

Under what authority do you change the active voice to the passive voice due to the subjunctive mood?

Christ turns those He saves from their sins.

got it ... you have no authority. You just take it upon yourself to change the active to the passive in order to prop up your dogma. It matters not to you what is actually written in Scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephó which means to turn. The verb is active, which means the person turns. If the verb was passive, that would mean the person was turned.

The veil being removed ... taken away is passive, which means that the person does not remove the veil. The veil is removed from him or her.

The person does the turning, the Lord removes the veil.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are not paying attention to what is written in Scripture. A person can be born again (i.e. the seed fell upon good ground) and yet be led astray through unsound dogma. That does not mean they are not born again. They are born again so they have inherited eternal life. However, they have been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ, so their fellowship with God in this life is broken ... they are not living life in light of all they are and have in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, there are those who seem on the surface to be Christians but are actually not (born again). They will fall away from Christ.

I am not speaking of those who are not born again.

The warnings God gives (some of which I have previously pointed out to you) are written to born again believers to alert the believer to be careful because we can be led astray, which does not mean we are no longer born again. It just means we may not be living fully in light of who we are in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think there is more to your post but for some reason am I'm having trouble finding it now.

I'll post this and look for/reply to the remaining later.

yes, please re-read Post 664 as my point is that there is a difference between salvation and fellowship.

Salvation – wherein the born again believer has an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away and wherein he or she is kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (1 Peter 1:4-5).

Fellowship – the walk in this life wherein the born again one can be drawn away from the Father and walk according to the flesh:


1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

'Can you inform me how you would interpret Rom 10:1-3? Is Paul speaking to spiritual Israel, who have a zeal of God, and are eternally delivered, praying that they may be saved (delivered) from their ignorance of the gospel? "

I believe the "they" of Rom 10:1 are actually the elect Jews identified by the "and might save some of them" of Rom 11:14: there are Jews who are of both the earthly Jewish religion/Israel but are also elect and of spiritual Israel, so I don't think Paul had either Israel in mind, but instead prayed for a certain subset of Jews - the elect Jews - prayed that he would provoke them to emulate him, although he might not have even known whom the "they" were. Neither do I think that Paul was praying for their deliverance from ignorance of the gospel because that is as a fruit of the Holy Spirit and accompanies becoming saved/born-again - so no prayer for that was needed.

[Rom 10:1 KJV] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

[Col 3:11 KJV] 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

I think that we have a different understanding, but I do agree that not all of the nation of Israel is of spiritual Israel (Rom 9:5) (Rom 2:28-29).

I believe the Israel referenced in Rom 1, and those Jews referenced in Rom 11:14, are of spiritual Israel. The savings (feliverances) in these scriptures is temporal, not eternal, because they were already saved (delivered) eternally.

To my understanding of the scriptures, the reason so many of God's, well intended, children are believing in eternal salvation by their good works, is because they are applying all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures as referencing eternal salvation (deliverance).

There is a deliverance accomplished by the good works of the born again child of God as they sojourn here in this world.

According to Strong's concordance, salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, and save=deliver.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The warnings God gives (some of which I have previously pointed out to you) are written to born again believers to alert the believer to be careful because we can be led astray, which does not mean we are no longer born again. It just means we may not be living fully in light of who we are in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This statement, in my understanding of the scriptures, is true. I believe that Rogerg has a very good understanding of the scriptures up to a certain point.

 

[rogerg]

I think that we have a different understanding, but I do agree that not all of the nation of Israel is of spiritual Israel (Rom 9:5) (Rom 2:28-29).

I believe the Israel referenced in Rom 1, and those Jews referenced in Rom 11:14, are of spiritual Israel. The savings (feliverances) in these scriptures is temporal, not eternal, because they were already saved (delivered) eternally.

To my understanding of the scriptures, the reason so many of God's, well intended, children are believing in eternal salvation by their good works, is because they are applying all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures as referencing eternal salvation (deliverance).

There is a deliverance accomplished by the good works of the born again child of God as they sojourn here in this world.

According to Strong's concordance, salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, and save=deliver.

Yes, I think we do see this differently, but it's been an interesting discussion and I've enjoyed it - thanks.

 

[Magenta]

'Can you inform me how you would interpret Rom 10:1-3? Is Paul speaking to spiritual Israel, who have a zeal of
God, and are eternally delivered, praying that they may be saved (delivered) from their ignorance of the gospel? "

He is speaking about them, not to them.

Romans 9:6b-8 Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... It is the children of promise who are regarded as offspring.

 

[rogerg]

He is speaking about them, not to them.

Romans 9:6b-8 Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... It is the children of promise who are regarded as offspring.

If I remember correctly, your quote is of ForestGreenCook's part of the reply, not mine - it was his question to me.

 

[Magenta]

If I remember correctly, your quote is of ForestGreenCook's part of the reply, not mine - it was his question to me.

I see... you did not quote him .

Ah! The quote tags were messed up... I found and fixed it.

Can you inform me how you would interpret Rom 10:1-3? Is Paul speaking to spiritual Israel, who have a zeal of
God, and are eternally delivered, praying that they may be saved (delivered) from their ignorance of the gospel?

He is speaking about them, not to them.

Romans 9:6b-8 Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... It is the children of promise who are regarded as offspring.

 

[brightfame52]

... Acts 13:23 does not respond to the fact that the Greek word didōmi in Acts 5:31 denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given).

Acts 5:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give [Greek didōmi] repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given [Greek didōmi] to them that obey him.

vs 31 – God was ready to give repentance to those who slew and hanged on a tree the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 32 – the same Greek word [didōmi] is used in this verse whom God hath given to them that obey him ... and what were they asked to do? ... receive the repentance given by God.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

Paul and Peter preached limited, particular atonement. Paul said according to promise, which is Gospel Truth, that God raised up a Saviour unto Israel, thats an elect people, chosen by God Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus

That this is the Gospel look at Vs 32-33

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings[Gospel], how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Peter preached the same thing, that Jesus is a Saviour to Israel, and gives Israel Repentance and forgiveness of sins, which is Justfication Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So if you deny limited atonement you deny the very Gospel of Jesus which the Apostles Preached.

 

[brightfame52]

got it ... you have no authority. You just take it upon yourself to change the active to the passive in order to prop up your dogma. It matters not to you what is actually written in Scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephó which means to turn. The verb is active, which means the person turns. If the verb was passive, that would mean the person was turned.

The veil being removed ... taken away is passive, which means that the person does not remove the veil. The veil is removed from him or her.

The person does the turning, the Lord removes the veil.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

. here is the authority Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Conversion is a Salvation Blessing that Christ effects , He gives repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Repentance is conversion, its a change of mind

 

[rogerg]

Repentance is conversion, its a change of mind

I might also add, brightfame52, that it is a change of mind caused by a new heart.

 

[brightfame52]

I might also add, brightfame52, that it is a change of mind caused by a new heart.

Most definitely, its all included in the Covenant Promise Ezk 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. or Jer 31:33-34

33 but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

All these Blessings come in and through the Death of Christ Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And what comes with remission of sins ? Acts 5:31

And conversion comes in a New Spiritual Life !
. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Conversion comes with forgiveness of sins.

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace...


He just perverted it beyond all recognition, presented it as a license to sin, and postulated that it only applied to him and the others in his special "master class".

Show me a quote in context from his writings that he did what you're saying.