Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

Locoponydirtman · Apr 8, 2023

Love of God and his word is precisely why i dont bother with those that are disqualified to teach according to His word. Unsurprisingly enough its also how i keep myself from errant teaching.
The irony here is that you would never tolerate from a pastor today the things Calvin did, and the way he presided over Geneva. Yet 500 years removed its all peachy.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 8, 2023

brightfame52 said:

continuously ripping verses from the context wherein the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture is detrimental to the believer ...

According to the context, the apostles were imprisoned by the high priest and the sadducees (Acts 5:17-18) ... the angel of the Lord released them from prison and commanded them to Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life (Acts 5:20) ... the high priest gathered the council and brought the apostles before them (Acts 5:21-27) ...

Acts 5:

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

vs 31 - the words "for to give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect; and

a. the act or effect of him who gives, in such a sense that what he is said διδόναι (either absolutely or with the dative of person) he is conceived of as effecting, or as becoming its author …

or

b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18;

vs 31 – God was ready to give repentance to those who slew and hanged on a tree the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 32 – the same Greek word [didomi] is used in this verse whom God hath given to them that obey him ... and what were they asked to do? ... receive the repentance given by God.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 8, 2023

brightfame52 said:

brightfame52 ... you claim the word "turned" is "used in the active voice but subjunctive".

So, you agree the verb is in the active voice, but then because it's in the subjunctive mood ... voilà ... the active becomes passive???

Under what authority do you change the active voice to the passive voice due to the subjunctive mood?

brightfame52 said:

Correct ... which tells us that the Author of Scripture knows how to use the passive voice and if the Author of Scripture had intended to use the passive voice in 2 Cor 3:16, He would have done so.

brightfame52 said:

... more sleight of hand rearrangement of the wording of Scripture by brightfame52.

2 Corinthians 3:16 clearly states that when the heart turns to the Lord Jesus Christ, then the veil is taken away. However, you don't like that so you take it upon yourself to change what is written in Scripture. When you change what is written in Scripture, you no longer have Scripture.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 8, 2023

rogerg said:

... pointing out the warnings God gives to born again believers concerning false doctrine does not "directly contradict and confront the Bible itself" ... nor have I ever stated that "God does not have the power, ability, or desire, to make good on His promises".

That you conclude God's numerous warnings to believers and my referring to God's numerous warnings to believers is as you claim does not mean you are correct in your assumption.

rogerg said:

really? that's what you believe??? ... even though we read in Scripture:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Galatians 2:3-4 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

rogerg said:

You are not paying attention to what is written in Scripture. A person can be born again (i.e. the seed fell upon good ground) and yet be led astray through unsound dogma. That does not mean they are not born again. They are born again so they have inherited eternal life. However, they have been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ, so their fellowship with God in this life is broken ... they are not living life in light of all they are and have in the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

rogerg said:

These verses do not negate the fact that a believer can be led astray through false dogma.

rogerg ... do you know the difference between salvation and fellowship?

Do you realize that God does keep the believer in His Hand and yet the believer can be drawn away from the Father to the enticements of this world? The believer is still born again, yet walks according to the flesh ... have you ever heard of the term "carnal Christian"?

Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical. James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

https://www.gotquestions.org/carnal-Christian.html

.

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

memmett said:

Where to start? Did Calvin believe total depravity was total at birth or got worse during life as a result of rejecting clear truth revealed to the unrepentant sinner by the Holy Spirit? I believe a rebellious sinner seals his own damnation and darkens his degeneracy by rejecting clear understandings given him by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Again you reject the Truth of scripture then excuse it by attributing it to calvin, that aint going to fly in the day of Judgement my friend.

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

Locoponydirtman said:

Thats just an excuse so you can reject the truth in favor of your fables. If you loved the Truth, you would love it for its own merit and not for something outside of it. Its the Love of the truth, or the lack of it, that men will perish for in their unrighteusness 2 Thess 2:9-11

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Your focus is more on men than on the Love of the Truth !

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

continuously ripping verses from the context wherein the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture is detrimental to the believer ...

According to the context, the apostles were imprisoned by the high priest and the sadducees (Acts 5:17-18) ... the angel of the Lord released them from prison and commanded them to Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life (Acts 5:20) ... the high priest gathered the council and brought the apostles before them (Acts 5:21-27) ...

Acts 5:

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

vs 31 - the words "for to give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect; and

a. the act or effect of him who gives, in such a sense that what he is said διδόναι (either absolutely or with the dative of person) he is conceived of as effecting, or as becoming its author …

or

b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18;

vs 31 – God was ready to give repentance to those who slew and hanged on a tree the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 32 – the same Greek word [didomi] is used in this verse whom God hath given to them that obey him ... and what were they asked to do? ... receive the repentance given by God.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

Christ is an Saviour to a particular people Israel, no not ethnic national israel, they were only a shadow, a type, but this Israel that God saved is a people chosen out of all ethnic groups. As Paul preached He , Jesus was raised a Saviour to Israel, Gods elect according to promise Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Christ turns those He saves from their sins. Acts 3:25-26

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

This is the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham in the Gospel Gal 3:8-9

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

ForestGreenCook · Apr 9, 2023

rogerg said:

I think, the elect being secure of having an inheritance of eternal heaven, we have no difference in our belief.

My concern is the fact that, in our conversations, I got the idea that you are believing that those of spiritual Israel, who are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the works of the old law. are not born again. I reference Rom 10:1-3.

It may be a problem of misunderstanding each other, due to my 88 years of age. At least I orten use that as my excuse.

Maybe you can give me some clarification on the subject in question.

ForestGreenCook · Apr 9, 2023

rogerg said:

What about the newborn babe in Christ (born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) that have not matured enough to digest the meat of the word (the gospel) and are not weaned from the breast? Reference Isaiah 28:9-10. & Heb 5:13-14.

rogerg · Apr 9, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, there are those who seem on the surface to be Christians but are actually not (born-again). They will fall away from Christ. However, the true believer, being warned, comprehends the warning and will not fall away from Him. Biblical admonitions
and rebukes are some of the ways God teaches the true believer spiritual doctrines. We do not wake up one morning after becoming born-again magically intellectually knowing or understanding everything or their implications. But God moves within us to ensure our faith in Christ alone as Saviour remains true.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

I think there is more to your post but for some reason am I'm having trouble finding it now.
I'll post this and look for/reply to the remaining later.

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

rogerg

Exactly Prov 6:23

For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Prov 10:17

He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

Prov 4:13

Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.

The word instruction here is the word mûsār and means:

discipline, chastening, correction
1. discipline, correction
2. chastening

Its translated rebuker Hos 5:2

And the revolters are profound to make slaughter, though I have been a rebuker of them all.

rogerg · Apr 9, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

lol - actually, I'm not that far behind you and I use it too. It really works really well for me for those things around the
house that I'd rather not do.

It seems that based upon the above, that we do somehow see being born-again differently, although I'm not sure precisely sure how you see it nor of what that difference is. It is my understanding that along with salvation we become born-again by the Holy Spirit and He indwells us. From that indwelling, we receive a new mind and heart (the fruit of the Spirit), by which we truly comprehend and take to heart the gospel and begin to exhibit the traits of a Christian, before which, we cannot. Again, for an example, look to Saul/Paul. He was always of God's elect, yet he rejected the gospel and worse until becoming saved/born again, at which time, God gave to him a profound understanding of it and it guided the rest of his life. I also see this in Christ's statement to Nicodemus. I thought the verses that I included in my prior post to you about the servant and the heir, demonstrated, that until becoming born-again, there is no difference between the two. Interested to get your general perspective and in particular, how/when does someone become born-again?

[Jhn 3:3 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Eph 5:8-9 KJV]
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth

[Gal 5:22-23 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

rogerg

I agree, the New Birth is an aspect of Salvation, Paul seems to indicate that here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through[by means of] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The Salvation here being the Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth, the sanctification of the Spirit and the New Birth I believe are the same thing, resulting in belief of the Truth which is Faith.

Exactly else how else can one believe with the heart unto righteousness ? Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the New Heart given by the Sanctifying work of the Spirit in the New Birth, the heart represents the mind, will, and affections

rogerg · Apr 9, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

I think that no Christian can/will ever completely plumb the depts of the gospel even studying it throughout their entire lives - it is
a continuing never-ending spiritual process whereby we grow in spiritual wisdom. I'm not sure of the specific point you're making
but I think the verses below may provide another perspective. In other words, if they were able to taste that the Lord was gracious to them was symbolic of them being born-again - and being born-again was the prerequisite to their desiring the sincere milk of the gospel, which desire was given to them from that.

[1Pe 2:2-3 KJV]
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

[Act 17:11 KJV]
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

rogerg · Apr 9, 2023

brightfame52 said:

rogerg

I agree, the New Birth is an aspect of Salvation, Paul seems to indicate that here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through[by means of] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The Salvation here being the Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth, the sanctification of the Spirit and the New Birth I believe are the same thing, resulting in belief of the Truth which is Faith.

Exactly else how else can one believe with the heart unto righteousness ? Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the New Heart given by the Sanctifying work of the Spirit in the New Birth, the heart represents the mind, will, and affections

I agree. Great verses for confirming that. Thanks brightfarme52.

Locoponydirtman · Apr 9, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Thats just an excuse so you can reject the truth in favor of your fables. If you loved the Truth, you would love it for its own merit and not for something outside of it. Its the Love of the truth, or the lack of it, that men will perish for in their unrighteusness 2 Thess 2:9-11

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Your focus is more on men than on the Love of the Truth !

The word of God says you know one by their fruit. Bad trees do not produce good fruit. Calvin was a bad tree.

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

rogerg

Its going to be an eternal age to comprehend the things involved in the Salvation of Gods Elect, thats what all things were created for Eph 2:4-7

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

In that eternal realm our minds will no longer be clouded by sin, our focus spiritually will be greatly heighten !

brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

Locoponydirtman said:

Your focus is on man, so you can excuse your rejection of the word of Truth.

Locoponydirtman · Apr 9, 2023

brightfame52 said:

So you are the judge of human hearts?
Its the job of Satan to falsely accuse the bretheren.
And thus bad fruit multiplies.

Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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