Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[HeIsHere]

I am not sure if mentioned this in this thread, but just to be clear, no matter whoever invented this dogma.....

There is no grace in Total Depravity.
There is no grace in Unconditional Election
There is no grace in Limited Atonement
There is no grace in Irresistible Grace
and there certainly is no grace in Perseverance of the saints.

 

[rogerg]

The thing that you don't understand, is that the natural man will not, and indeed, cannot, repent and confess of breaking a spiritual law that he does not understand, and thinks them to be foolishness. Only the born again spiritually will repent and confess.

Repenting and confessing will deliver (save) the born again, as they sojourn here in this world, but repenting and confessing is not the cause of his eternal deliverance.

Jesus finished his work on the cross by redeeming all of those that his Father gave him, from their sin. There is no more coming to the cross.

Indeed, ForestGreenCook. There are many places in the Bible where we are informed of exactly that. 1 Jo 5:20 is one that makes it very clear. In effect, it tells us that it is all of/by God - by His actions, not ours, and for those to whom it is directed, they are but its recipients.

[1Jo 5:20 KJV]
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No problem.

Yep. But I also think that some of them were of the elect and, at a time of God's choosing, were born again joining spiritual Israel.
Actually, just to make my understanding clear, I think everyone who becomes saved, does so the same way; that is
there is only one way of salvation: Jesus Christ. Either God has elected someone to it, or He hasn't. If so, then they must become saved, if not, then they will never become saved. I do not believe any physical linage, creed, nationality, race, etc, plays a part in it.
We are saved for one reason only - because God had chosen us individually to it - that reason, and that reason alone, is what makes it solely by grace.



I think the wide gate represents a trust in salvation through our works; the strait gate, of salvation through Christ. Of course,
only those born-again fully and who completely trust in Christ as Saviour enter in through the strait gate but are able only because it has been given to them - Christ is that strait gate. Not everyone can enter in that way.



I think all true believers are instructed to share the gospel with anyone not a true believer irrespective of any other factors. I think the significance of the nation of Israel and of physical Jews has long since passed away. All of the elect have become one in Christ Jesus.

[Col 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?



That depends on how you define idols. As a replacement of Christ? No, not for a true believer - I do not think that possible. Might there be ancillary, incorrect non-foundational, doctrines that some may follow? That could be possible, but for the foundational ones,
no.

[Phl 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



No, not for those of God's elect who have become born-again. All of the elect before then, at one time or another, have trusted in their works for deliverance, but afterwards, I don't think that possible. Look at Saul/Paul for example.

So, am I hearing you correctly, that you believe the elect of God, before they were born again (Eph 2:2) trusted in their works for deliverance? Deliverance from what? Before we are born again, we are the same as the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, are we not? Is the natural man, before he has been born again, a sweet savour of Christ unto God?

Do you not agree, that when the born again are walking in the flesh, due to being tempted by sin, they are worshiping idols, such as, themselves, their financial status, their new automobile, and such?

I also think that the physical nation of Israel, as God's favored nation has long passed away, but don't you think that the scriptures teach that Jacob, who's name was changed to be called Israel, is the spiritual Israel that consists of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9)?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And you do not understand the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit in convincing and convicting. Together they can bring saving faith to those who are dead in their trespasses in sins. It is only AFTER sinners believe the Gospel and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So you need to understand the power of the Gospel, and a good place to start is Romans 10. Peter calls the Gospel the incorruptible seed of the New Birth and James concurs.

And it is you that does not understand the power of God, when you say that God wants all mankind to be saved, but that God just can't have his will, because some people won't let him. Your theory gives more power to man than God has.

I suggest you read Dan 4:35, and others pertaining to God's will. All scriptures must harmonize before you can understand the gospel of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

So, am I hearing you correctly, that you believe the elect of God, before they were born again (Eph 2:2) trusted in their works for deliverance? Deliverance from what? Before we are born again, we are the same as the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, are we not? Is the natural man, before he has been born again, a sweet savour of Christ unto God?

Yes. I believe that all those not born again are the natural man. As such, they by nature trust in their works.
Through becoming saved/born again, a knowledge of Christ is given to them by God, by/from which, they completely reject their works
and come to a knowledge and trust fully and completely in Christ as Saviour.

Do you not agree, that when the born again are walking in the flesh, due to being tempted by sin, they are worshiping idols, such as, themselves, their financial status, their new automobile, and such?

Yes, I agree. But, by no longer being under law through Christ, there is no condemnation against us. Nevertheless,
over time, God renews our minds away from that (although maybe not totally), unto our focus and desire becoming
the kingdom of God, which, by Him we grow in throughout our lives.

I also think that the physical nation of Israel, as God's favored nation has long passed away, but don't you think that the scriptures teach that Jacob, who's name was changed to be called Israel, is the spiritual Israel that consists of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9)?

Yes, I would agree with you that spiritual Israel consists of those, and only those saved. God's promise spiritually is through Jacob/Israel
and come out from all the groups you mentioned above.

[Rom 9:7-8 KJV] 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Gal 6:16 KJV] 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[rogerg]

So, am I hearing you correctly, that you believe the elect of God, before they were born again (Eph 2:2) trusted in their works for deliverance? Deliverance from what? Before we are born again, we are the same as the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, are we not? Is the natural man, before he has been born again, a sweet savour of Christ unto God?

Sorry, maybe I didn't completely understand your question in my prior reply. Please clarify further - thanks.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes. I believe that all those not born again are the natural man. As such, they by nature trust in their works.
Through becoming saved/born again, a knowledge of Christ is given to them by God, by/from which, they completely reject their works
and come to a knowledge and trust fully and completely in Christ as Saviou

Help me get our understanding straight. Are you implying that the natural man, before he has been born again, is trusting in the old law of works that are written in stone, if so, is not that a spiritual work to establish their own righteousness?

That theory does not harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14 that says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness.

To me, your theory sounds like the newborn babes in Christ, who have the promise of an eternal inheritance, but have not matured enough to come unto a knowledge of the gospel.

 

[rogerg]

Help me get our understanding straight. Are you implying that the natural man, before he has been born again, is trusting in the old law of works that are written in stone, if so, is not that a spiritual work to establish their own righteousness?

That theory does not harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14 that says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness.

To me, your theory sounds like the newborn babes in Christ, who have the promise of an eternal inheritance, but have not matured enough to come unto a knowledge of the gospel.

Sorry ForestGreenCook,it is my fault, but I'm not getting your point. Perhaps we haven't reconciled the basis of our
perceptions of the process of salvation before now - or perhaps we are actually saying the same thing but just don't realize it.
I believe that until being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, one cannot see the kingdom of heaven, and therefore, are exactly the same as the unsaved - to me, 1 Cor 2:14 is exactly my point- because in 1 Cor 2:12, we are told that the things of God must be "revealed" to His elect by His Spirit, meaning, as I understand it, that those of the elect who have not yet become born-again do not differ from the unsaved: they must first be given a new mind and spirit by the Holy Spirit and then by that the gospel is revealed. Maybe these verses will help clarify how I see it. What do I have wrong and how do you see it?

[Gal 4:1-3, 6-8 KJV]
1 Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: ...
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[memmett]

All one has to do is study how Geneva was during his time there.

Calvin lived at a time when a man like himself was able to murder his enemies without fear of retribution.

 

[brightfame52]

Calvin lived at a time when a man like himself was able to murder his enemies without fear of retribution.

Is that all you can think about is a man named calvin and not the scriptures he showed forth ?

 

[memmett]

Is that all you can think about is a man named calvin and not the scriptures he showed forth ?

I don't respect the man or the doctrinal errors he espoused.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Is that all you can think about is a man named calvin and not the scriptures he showed forth ?

The thing is, we have the Biblical standards for an officer of the church. Calvin is disquified for his tyranny. So he and his teaxhings are to be wholey rejected. Calvin didnt break any ground anyway. He parroted Augustine, only took it too far. But to be a bit more fair to Calvin, He wasn't even a modern Calvinist.

 

[awelight]

And you do not understand the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit in convincing and convicting. Together they can bring saving faith to those who are dead in their trespasses in sins. It is only AFTER sinners believe the Gospel and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So you need to understand the power of the Gospel, and a good place to start is Romans 10. Peter calls the Gospel the incorruptible seed of the New Birth and James concurs.

Three questions then:

1.) What would be the purpose of being "born from above", if a person has the ability to believe already?

2.) You do realize that the "gift of the Spirit" and "being born anew" are not the same thing?

3.) You say that I need to understand the power of the Gospel. (Which I do). Do you classify yourself as a Gospel Regenerist?

 

[brightfame52]

I don't respect the man or the doctrinal errors he espoused.

Not respecting the man is fine, but the scriptures he set forth is where you fall into not respecting the scriptures.

 

[brightfame52]

The thing is, we have the Biblical standards for an officer of the church. Calvin is disquified for his tyranny. So he and his teaxhings are to be wholey rejected. Calvin didnt break any ground anyway. He parroted Augustine, only took it too far. But to be a bit more fair to Calvin, He wasn't even a modern Calvinist.

Its a shame you cant seperate a man from the word of God, you end up despising the word of God because of a sinful man. Paul rejoiced whenever Christ was preached even though it may have been preached by people with dubious motives even against himself Phil 1:14-18

14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

May God be pleased to give you a love for the Truth and cloud your focus on men.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Three questions then: 1.) What would be the purpose of being "born from above", if a person has the ability to believe already?

All sinners can be converted through the Gospel if all will repent and believe. After that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit who supernaturally REGENERATES the believer. That is the New Birth, when a person is born from above, born of the Spirit, born or God, or born again.

2.) You do realize that the "gift of the Spirit" and "being born anew" are not the same thing?

That is correct. The gift of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES the New Birth. Kindly notice the sequence of events in Ephesians 1:12-14: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is crystal clear from this passage that the Gospel comes first, then comes saving faith, then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then comes the sealing with the Spirit. "The redemption of the purchased possession" speaks of the ultimate perfection and glorification of the saints.

3.) You say that I need to understand the power of the Gospel. (Which I do). Do you classify yourself as a Gospel Regenerist?

If by that you mean that the Gospel regenerates then that is not how it works. It is the Holy Spirit -- God Himself -- who regenerates a sinner and makes him or her a child of God. But the Gospel GENERATES saving faith and that is perfectly clear in Romans chapter 10. Therefore Paul says in Romans 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This is reinforced in Romans 16:25,26 where the Gospel brings about "the obedience of faith" (obedience to the Gospel): Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[brightfame52]

neh

All sinners can be converted through the Gospel if all will repent and believe.

Sinners cant do that until Christ gives it to them, saves them. Coversion is part of Salvation Christ gives Acts 3{26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

That turning is conversion, repentance, its a blessing from Christ

 

[memmett]

Not respecting the man is fine, but the scriptures he set forth is where you fall into not respecting the scriptures.

Calvin misinterpreted the scriptures. It is wrong to respect misinterpretations of scriptures.

 

[brightfame52]

Calvin misinterpreted the scriptures. It is wrong to respect misinterpretations of scriptures.

Thats just an excuse to not believe the scriptures, you bring up men ! You reject the scripture under the guise of saying its just some mans interpretation.

 

[memmett]

Thats just an excuse to not believe the scriptures, you bring up men ! You reject the scripture under the guise of saying its just some mans interpretation.

Where to start? Did Calvin believe total depravity was total at birth or got worse during life as a result of rejecting clear truth revealed to the unrepentant sinner by the Holy Spirit? I believe a rebellious sinner seals his own damnation and darkens his degeneracy by rejecting clear understandings given him by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.