What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[Cameron143]

Let's suppose I am going on a trip. I make all the arrangements, set a date, and wait. But I also would like it to be a family excursion. I desire their company.

Is it considered a desire if I only have a strong feeling of wanting? Do I need to do anything to make my desire a desire? If I volunteer to incur all the expenses for my family does this make it a desire when before it wasn't? What if I only volunteered to pay for some family members? Does this affect whether it is a desire or lessen the desire to have the company of my family?

I ask these questions so they will be top of mind when asking the same questions about God's desire that all people are saved? Can God's desire for the salvation of people be independent of people? Does God have to do anything for people in order for His desire to be genuine? If so, does He have to act equally towards all people for His desire to be real?

I'm not attempting to offer this as proof of one set of ideas over another. It is simply to understand the nature of what is entailed in a desire and what is not. Consequently, and perhaps impossibly, I am asking for unbiased thought. I am asking that as you consider the question, you set aside, as much as is possible, how you would answer based on your other held beliefs, and consider the question independently from other doctrine.

Thanks. And I look forward to your responses.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Let's suppose I am going on a trip. I make all the arrangements, set a date, and wait. But I also would like it to be a family excursion. I desire their company. Is it considered a desire if I only have a strong feeling of wanting? Do I need to do anything to make my desire a desire? If I volunteer to incur all the expenses for my family does this make it a desire when before it wasn't? What if I only volunteered to pay for some family members? Does this affect whether it is a desire or lessen the desire to have the company of my family?

Hello Cameron, my answers would be "yes" to your first question, and "no" to all of your other questions.

Can God's desire for the salvation of people be independent of people?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate?

Does God have to do anything for people in order for His desire to be genuine? If so, does He have to act equally towards all people for His desire to be real?

"No" to both questions.

I'm not attempting to offer this as proof of one set of ideas over another. It is simply to understand the nature of what is entailed in a desire and what is not. Consequently, and perhaps impossibly, I am asking for unbiased thought. I am asking that as you consider the question, you set aside, as much as is possible, how you would answer based on your other held beliefs, and consider the question independently from other doctrine.

As a believer I rarely say this but, "best of luck" in seeing that particular desire of yours fulfilled in such a place as this! Miracles do happen though

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Cameron143]

Hello Cameron, my answers would be "yes" to your first question, and "no" to all of your other questions.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate?


"No" to both questions.


As a believer I rarely say this but, "best of luck" in seeing that particular desire of yours fulfilled in such a place as this! Miracles do happen though

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Good evening brother. Always a privilege to chat with you.
The wording for the question you didn't understand is difficult as I consider it retrospectively. I was merely trying to repeat the question asked in the preceeding paragraph using alternative verbiage. In other words, can God's desire be only a feeling that requires no action?

For love to be love, it requires not only compassion, but an action. God loved the world, so He gave. The good Samaritan was praised not because he had compassion, but because he met the man's needs.
Does desire also require an action as love does?

 

[Magenta]

If we are to believe God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth, repent,
and be saved, how can we also believe He makes it impossible for some to come?

 

[Cameron143]

If we are to believe God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth, repent,
and be saved, how can we also believe He makes it impossible for some to come?

I don't believe He makes it impossible for some. And I don't believe a desire requires an action.

 

[Magenta]

I don't believe He makes it impossible for some.

Some believe there are those who are predestined for destruction. That God
has predetermined their outcome, through an act of His sovereign will.

And I don't believe a desire requires an action.

Desire is an act of the will.

 

[Cameron143]

Some believe there are those who are predestined for destruction.

Desire is an act of the will.

Well, I'm not responsible for what some think. And I don't believe desire is an act. I believe it is a strong wanting. And, as I explained in a previous post, I don't believe it requires action to genuinely exist.
If that is not your understanding, I'm okay with that.

 

[Magenta]

Well, I'm not responsible for what some think. And I don't believe desire is an act. I believe it is a strong wanting.
And, as I explained in a previous post, I don't believe it requires action to genuinely exist.
If that is not your understanding, I'm okay with that.

I didn't say, hint at, imply, insinuate, or otherwise indicate that you were responsible in any way for what others think ..
I am simply responding to your query, with what seems to me to be the main objection to Calvinistic thought.
Isn't that what this thread is about?

Desire must originate somewhere. I am saying it originates in the will: desire is an act of the will.
No other action need accompany it, as you have been postulating, for it to exist and be genuine.

 

[Cameron143]

I didn't say, hint at, imply, insinuate, or otherwise indicate that you were responsible in any way for what others think ..
I am simply responding to your query, with what seems to me to be the main objection to Calvinistic thought.
Isn't that what this thread is about?

Desire must originate somewhere. I am saying it originates in the will: desire is an act of the will.
No other action need accompany it, as you have been postulating, for it to exist and be genuine.

The answer I gave wasn't implying anything other than I can't answer for someone else.

If you read the opening post, I specifically asked that only consideration be given to a singular question without regard to any other belief. There are plenty of threads that deal with various aspects of Calvinism. I was deliberately trying to avoid such discussion.

And desire doesn't originate in the will. It originates in the heart. We have plenty of desires of the heart. I've never heard of a desire of the will.

 

[Magenta]

The answer I gave wasn't implying anything other than I can't answer for someone else.

If you read the opening post, I specifically asked that only consideration be given to a singular question without regard to any other belief. There are plenty of threads that deal with various aspects of Calvinism. I was deliberately trying to avoid such discussion.

And desire doesn't originate in the will. It originates in the heart. We have plenty of desires of the heart. I've never heard of a desire of the will.

The heart is the centre of a man's being, comprised of mind, will, emotions, and conscience.
You asked a lot of questions. You don't seem to care for my answers. You seem defensive.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thanks. And I look forward to your responses.

You are just trying to unnecessarily complicate things. "God desires all people (all mankind) to be saved" speaks for itself. God offers salvation to all -- "whosoever" -- meaning anyone and everyone regardless of nationality, ethnicity, gender, or degree of wickedness.

 

[Adstar]

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You questions made me think of the above verse.. I see it as a verse to counter any teaching that God created people with no hope of salvation,, created simply to burn in the eternal lake of fire..

Gods intention has cause Him to act by giving us the Way we can avoid perishing by Believing His Word and trusting in the atonement He provides for all who will accept it..

Gods desire also prompts Him to send the Holy Spirit to convict people and move them.. The Holy Spirit will work on a person who is seeking the will of God by guiding them in reading scriptures for example..

So does Gods expressed will that he does not desire that any should perish cause Him to take actions to save people? Yes indeed.. Can people resist His efforts to move them to salvation? Yes indeed many have resisted the moving of the Holy Spirit..

 

[Magenta]

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

2 Peter 3:9

 

[Cameron143]

The heart is the centre of a man's being, comprised of mind, will, emotions, and conscience.
You asked a lot of questions. You don't seem to care for my answers. You seem defensive.

I believe the Bible distinguishes between the mind, the heart, and the will as separate entities. For example, it speaks of those who believe...obeyed...the will...from the heart...the heart...that form of doctrine...the mind...that which was delivered...
And you are free to answer as you wish. I'm merely responding to the things you have written.

 

[Cameron143]

You are just trying to unnecessarily complicate things. "God desires all people (all mankind) to be saved" speaks for itself. God offers salvation to all -- "whosoever" -- meaning anyone and everyone regardless of nationality, ethnicity, gender, or degree of wickedness.

Thanks for your response.

 

[Cameron143]

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You questions made me think of the above verse.. I see it as a verse to counter any teaching that God created people with no hope of salvation,, created simply to burn in the eternal lake of fire..

Gods intention has cause Him to act by giving us the Way we can avoid perishing by Believing His Word and trusting in the atonement He provides for all who will accept it..

Gods desire also prompts Him to send the Holy Spirit to convict people and move them.. The Holy Spirit will work on a person who is seeking the will of God by guiding them in reading scriptures for example..

So does Gods expressed will that he does not desire that any should perish cause Him to take actions to save people? Yes indeed.. Can people resist His efforts to move them to salvation? Yes indeed many have resisted the moving of the Holy Spirit..

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Magenta]

I believe the Bible distinguishes between the mind, the heart, and the will as separate entities. For example, it speaks of those who believe...obeyed...the will...from the heart...the heart...that form of doctrine...the mind...that which was delivered...
And you are free to answer as you wish. I'm merely responding to the things you have written.

As am I.

Matthew 9:4
And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts?”

Thinking is an activity of the mind.

Acts 11:23
“Who, when he arrived and saw the grace of God, rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain with the Lord with purpose of heart.”

To purpose is to decide strongly to do something, which is an exercise of our will. This verse shows that our will is part of our heart.

John 16:22
“Therefore you also now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and no one takes your joy away from you.”

Rejoicing is related to our emotions; our heart rejoices. This shows us that our emotion is also part of our heart.

Hebrews 10:22

“Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having
our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.”

Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience indicates that our conscience is also part of our heart.

This is further confirmed by the phrase “if our heart blames us” in 1 John 3:20. source

 

[Cameron143]

As am I.

Matthew 9:4
And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts?”

Thinking is an activity of the mind.

Acts 11:23
“Who, when he arrived and saw the grace of God, rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain with the Lord with purpose of heart.”

To purpose is to decide strongly to do something, which is an exercise of our will. This verse shows that our will is part of our heart.

John 16:22
“Therefore you also now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and no one takes your joy away from you.”

Rejoicing is related to our emotions; our heart rejoices. This shows us that our emotion is also part of our heart.

Hebrews 10:22

“Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having
our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.”

Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience indicates that our conscience is also part of our heart.

This is further confirmed by the phrase “if our heart blames us” in 1 John 3:20. [COLOR=rgb(239, 239,
I'm not suggesting they aren't interrelated. Words can reflect what is in the head and in the heart. But feeling is a matter of the heart. Thinking is a matter of the mind. And doing is a matter of the will. They remain distinct entities. Otherwise, everything felt in the heart would be spoken. But, we don't speak every emotion or thought because the will can override the sentiment.[/SIZE]

 

[Magenta]

I'm not suggesting they aren't interrelated. Words can reflect what is in the head and in the heart. But feeling is a matter of the heart. Thinking is a matter of the mind. And doing is a matter of the will. They remain distinct entities. Otherwise, everything felt in the heart would be spoken. But, we don't speak every emotion or thought because the will can override the sentiment.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give. I gave other Scriptures to show
they are more than interrelated. “And you shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart.” It is
more than a feeling. In Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (Royal Publishers Edition, 1975)
the Hebrew word for purposed (“siym” 7760) can also mean commit (“for Daniel committed in his heart”).
The mind, will, and conscience are just as involved. i.e., “Do not be afraid, Daniel,” he said, “for from the
first day that you purposed to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were
heard, and I have come in response to them." Daniel purposed (an act of the will) to understand (mind)
and to humble himself before God (his love for God)... all showing what was in his heart. As to speaking
every emotion, I am not sure why you say that. The mind is often perplexed by emotions, and they can
not always be spoken for any number of reasons, regardless of one's desire to do so.

 

[MsMediator]

Is it considered a desire if I only have a strong feeling of wanting? Do I need to do anything to make my desire a desire? If I volunteer to incur all the expenses for my family does this make it a desire when before it wasn't? What if I only volunteered to pay for some family members? Does this affect whether it is a desire or lessen the desire to have the company of my family?

I think there are degrees of desire, and that the greater the desire the more one is willing to sacrifice or "work" for it. With your particular example, it also depends on how much you are able to afford. If you cannot incur all expenses and can only afford to treat a few family members, there is not much else you can do and I don't think this inability to afford all expenses weighs against your desire. However, if you can afford all expenses but only want to treat a few members, I think your desire for a family vacation where everyone attends is not as great.

With respect to God's desire that all people are saved, one observation made in the Bible is that Jesus does not chase down nonbelievers or spends all of his energy to convert any particular person. He tries to make a person believe once of twice, and then moves to another person, another town, etc. One example is the story of the rich man, if I remember correctly, Jesus saw the rich man walk away since the rich man did not want to give away his possessions. Even when Jesus teaches others, including Nicodemus, He moves on without securing their faith.

So, while I believe God desires that all people are saved, He still requires faith and won't force us to believe. A lot of atheists argue if God wants them to believe, why isn't God easily visible. However, Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen, so this makes me believe that God requires this sort of faith. I am not sure if God pursues us continually if we don't pursue him, but He is always available when we decide to return. The way God desires is different from how humans desire, as we humans do not require faith and the issues we deal with eachother are different from salvation which for Christians requires faith.