Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Cameron143]

God can be Glorified in ALL things. BUT, you, myself, NO ONE on this thread can tell me that God is feeling Victorious about a few high fiving that God sent someone to Eternal Damnation. i'm sure this is the type of Thread God stands in front of a mirror and adjusts His Crown because this Thread makes Him feel all good, warm, and fuzzy about Himself.

I get it. Your sensibilities are offended. It's easy to understand how the glory of God is manifested in mercy and grace and love. We have experienced these ourselves and enjoy them immensely. But in order for God to exercise love and grace and mercy to the children of Israel at the Red Sea, didn't He also have to exercise judgment upon the Egyptians. In exercising His love to you, didn't He have to pour out His wrath upon His Son?

God doesn't stop being anything that He is to exercise a single attribute. He remains the totality of all that He is. He doesn't stop being sovereign or holy in His exercise of mercy and grace.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I get it. Your sensibilities are offended. It's easy to understand how the glory of God is manifested in mercy and grace and love. We have experienced these ourselves and enjoy them immensely. But in order for God to exercise love and grace and mercy to the children of Israel at the Red Sea, didn't He also have to exercise judgment upon the Egyptians. In exercising His love to you, didn't He have to pour out His wrath upon His Son?

God doesn't stop being anything that He is to exercise a single attribute. He remains the totality of all that He is. He doesn't stop being sovereign or holy in His exercise of mercy and grace.

no, if God watched as humans grabbed another, and held him, and then one tire after another layering the person, and then setting it all on fire, and chose to look away and walk on down the road..there is Glory somewhere in all of that specifically just for Him. i don't question it all. but i don't see the Apostles writing about nowhere being against the Will of God to go and preach and reach the lost and unsaved.

All i see is people taking the writings of Paul and manipulating them within this Thread.

 

[Cameron143]

no, if God watched as humans grabbed another, and held him, and then one tire after another layering the person, and then setting it all on fire, and chose to look away and walk on down the road..there is Glory somewhere in all of that specifically just for Him. i don't question it all. but i don't see the Apostles writing about nowhere being against the Will of God to go and preach and reach the lost and unsaved.

All i see is people taking the writings of Paul and manipulating them within this Thread.

God is glorified in the exercise of His attributes. The more that He expresses, the greater His glory. We easily identify with the ones that have brought peace to us with Him. And we shudder at those that bring destruction. But God is glorified equally in either.
This may offend people's sensibilities, but it is the reality concerning God.

 

[Magenta]

Ecclesiastes 3
1 Everything that happens in this world happens at the time God chooses.
2 He sets the time for birth and the time for death, the time for planting and the time for pulling up,
3 the time for killing and the time for healing, the time for tearing down and the time for building.
4 He sets the time for sorrow and the time for joy, the time for mourning and the time for dancing,
5 the time for making love and the time for not making love, the time for kissing and the time for not kissing.
6 He sets the time for finding and the time for losing, the time for saving and the time for throwing away,
7 the time for tearing and the time for mending, the time for silence and the time for talk.
8 He sets the time for love and the time for hate, the time for war and the time for peace.
9 What do we gain from all our work?
10 I know the heavy burdens that God has laid on us.
11 He has set the right time for everything. He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does.
12 So I realized that all we can do is be happy and do the best we can while we are still alive.
13 All of us should eat and drink and enjoy what we have worked for. It is God's gift.
14 I know that everything God does will last forever. You can't add anything to it or take anything away from it. And one thing God does is to make us stand in awe of him.
15 Whatever happens or can happen has already happened before. God makes the same thing happen again and again.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

 

[Magenta]

Whatever happens or can happen has already happened before. God makes the same thing happen again and again.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10

 

[Magenta]

God doesn't stop being anything that He is to exercise a single attribute.

God is glorified in the exercise of His attributes. The more that He expresses, the greater His glory.

It always seems to come down to whether or not God deliberately makes some specifically for
destruction, against not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Scripture
also says God wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9

 

[Cameron143]

It always seems to come down to whether or not God deliberately makes some specifically for
destruction, against not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Scripture
also says God wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9

Actually, the Bible doesn't only say that. Otherwise, your post would be #5, not #5106.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, the Bible doesn't only say that. Otherwise, your post would be #5, not #5106.

Actually, I did not say the Bible only says that. How do you reconcile them?

 

[Cameron143]

Actually, I did not say the Bible only says that. How do you reconcile them?

The short answer is that God can desire something and still allow for another outcome.
But I don't need to reconcile the 2. The Bible makes claims that both are true. Scripture says that God chose some in Christ before the foundation of the world. It also says that God has a desire for all to be saved.
I believe I could explain further and nuance the arguments but I have attempted before and people either don't understand the explanation or have already chosen a position and are disinclined to budge.

Ultimately, for me, I find no contradiction because I find both in scripture and though it seems illogical in human understanding, I have no problem accepting things by faith. I can't explain trinity but I believe. I can't explain creation either, but by faith I understand how the world was formed. I can't even explain how God became flesh, but I know He did.

People like to have matters settled. Nothing wrong with that. But because God hasn't given mankind all the answers or the ability or revelation to this point to understand everything, walking by faith is okay by me.

 

[Magenta]

The short answer is that God can desire something and still allow for another outcome.
But I don't need to reconcile the 2. The Bible makes claims that both are true. Scripture says that God chose some in Christ before the foundation of the world. It also says that God has a desire for all to be saved.
I believe I could explain further and nuance the arguments but I have attempted before and people either don't understand the explanation or have already chosen a position and are disinclined to budge.

Ultimately, for me, I find no contradiction because I find both in scripture and though it seems illogical in human understanding, I have no problem accepting things by faith. I can't explain trinity but I believe. I can't explain creation either, but by faith I understand how the world was formed. I can't even explain how God became flesh, but I know He did.

People like to have matters settled. Nothing wrong with that. But because God hasn't given mankind all the answers or the ability or revelation to this point to understand everything, walking by faith is okay by me.

Are you saying that God does specifically make some for destruction, and
they have no chance of salvation? Your response does not make that clear.

 

[Cameron143]

Are you saying that God does specifically make some for destruction, and
they have no chance of salvation? Your response does not make that clear.

If we return to the example of the wheat and the tares, God sowed wheat and Satan sowed tares. I don't believe God is under any obligation to save tares.
The outworking of that is what Romans 9 is about.
God doesn't have to make anyone fit for destruction. Apart from Him, every person makes themselves meet for judgment. It takes a coming of God to a person to effectuate salvation, sometimes several.

 

[Magenta]

If we return to the example of the wheat and the tares, God sowed wheat and Satan sowed tares. I don't believe God is under any obligation to save tares.
The outworking of that is what Romans 9 is about.
God doesn't have to make anyone fit for destruction. Apart from Him, every person makes themselves meet for judgment. It takes a coming of God to a person to effectuate salvation, sometimes several.

Satan can only do what God allows. On the one hand, you say Satan did it, but then you say
man is responsible anyway. If God has made it so some cannot choose, then God is responsible.

And that is the question at the heart of the controversy. Did God make it so some
have no choice? If some are made specifically for destruction, how does tormenting
them forever after for not making a choice they are barred from bring glory to God?

 

[Beckie]

Satan can only do what God allows. On the one hand, you say Satan did it, but then you say
man is responsible anyway. If God has made it so some cannot choose, then God is responsible.

And that is the question at the heart of the controversy. Did God make it so some have no choice?

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God can only be Godly what ever He does or doesn't .

 

[Cameron143]

Satan can only do what God allows. On the one hand, you say Satan did it, but then you say
man is responsible anyway. If God has made it so some cannot choose, then God is responsible.

And that is the question at the heart of the controversy. Did God make it so some
have no choice? If some are made specifically for destruction, how does tormenting
them forever after for not making a choice they are barred from bring glory to God?

You can't both argue that man has a choice and then doesn't. There is freewill. No one who is condemned chose God or came to repentance and faith.
Could Cain have brought an acceptable sacrifice. Even after he didn't, could he have done so? It was his choice. He chose damnation for himself.
Was he elect of God or was his name written in the Lambs Book of Life? No.

 

[Magenta]

You can't both argue that man has a choice and then doesn't. There is freewill. No one who is condemned chose God or came to repentance and faith.
Could Cain have brought an acceptable sacrifice. Even after he didn't, could he have done so? It was his choice. He chose damnation for himself.
Was he elect of God or was his name written in the Lambs Book of Life? No.

That is your argument, not mine, which is why I asked how you reconcile the verses to such a position.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

God is glorified in the exercise of His attributes. The more that He expresses, the greater His glory. We easily identify with the ones that have brought peace to us with Him. And we shudder at those that bring destruction. But God is glorified equally in either.
This may offend people's sensibilities, but it is the reality concerning God.

whenever we tie the Old Covenant Examples to and with the New Covenant's, we have a broader view of what we are seeing.

Example:
look at all of the "ITES" represented in the Old Covenant.
let's begin with Amalekite [A Male Kite]:
this sect of people represented SIN and God Commanded Saul to kill ALL of them.
so here is GOD KILLING SIN by virtue of killing off a Complete Race of People.

and we have other "ITES" also representing other SINS and being slaughtered down to Nothing.
they're connected to the Nephillim Seed, they must DIE!
They are the SAME AS the evils of EVIL itself.
and again, God KILLING People that represent SINS.

and we see God Glorious in wiping out Races of ITES, one after another, because they ALL represent SIN from being connected to Genesis 6 [Nephillim].


NOW, we come to the New Covenant:

those, the Father do not give to the Son, do they also have connection to Genesis 6 and later on the ITES?

^
that would be, for myself, a perfect understanding of this claim, God made some people for Hell.
but even that is incorrect!
God did make Everything.
but it was FREE WILL that caused Angels to infect the Human Race.
an Infection that spreads from Genesis 6 to this very day.
the Nephellim Seed can be found in every human destroyed by God to the point of Eternity.
surely, there are remaining seeds, and why they are agnostic or atheist or too numb to care about anything like Eternity.

 

[Cameron143]

That is your argument, not mine, which is why I asked how you reconcile the verses to such a position.

My argument is that man has the freedom to choose. And God does too. And that man's choices in no way limit God choices but bring them to pass.

 

[Magenta]

My argument is that man has the freedom to choose. And God does too. And
that man's choices in no way limit God choices but bring them to pass.

If all men have freedom to choose then it cannot be said that God specifically makes some for destruction,
for that would mean they are inherently rendered incapable of making the choice available to others.

And that is at the heart of the controversy regarding Calvinism.

 

[Cameron143]

whenever we tie the Old Covenant Examples to and with the New Covenant's, we have a broader view of what we are seeing.

Example:
look at all of the "ITES" represented in the Old Covenant.
let's begin with Amalekite [A Male Kite]:
this sect of people represented SIN and God Commanded Saul to kill ALL of them.
so here is GOD KILLING SIN by virtue of killing off a Complete Race of People.

and we have other "ITES" also representing other SINS and being slaughtered down to Nothing.
they're connected to the Nephillim Seed, they must DIE!
They are the SAME AS the evils of EVIL itself.
and again, God KILLING People that represent SINS.

and we see God Glorious in wiping out Races of ITES, one after another, because they ALL represent SIN from being connected to Genesis 6 [Nephillim].


NOW, we come to the New Covenant:

those, the Father do not give to the Son, do they also have connection to Genesis 6 and later on the ITES?

^
that would be, for myself, a perfect understanding of this claim, God made some people for Hell.
but even that is incorrect!
God did make Everything.
but it was FREE WILL that caused Angels to infect the Human Race.
an Infection that spreads from Genesis 6 to this very day.
the Nephellim Seed can be found in every human destroyed by God to the point of Eternity.
surely, there are remaining seeds, and why they are agnostic or atheist or too numb to care about anything like Eternity.

I don't follow your entire argument but what I was pointing out is that any exercise of an attribute of God is purposed to bring Him glory.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I don't follow your entire argument but what I was pointing out is that any exercise of an attribute of God is purposed to bring Him glory.

anyone who Follows God knows this.
ALL of Creation from His literal Heavenly Kingdom and Occupants from Creatures and Beings to Angels down to a Universe so vast it is beyond complete possible full grasping understanding, and centered a Plan to a Planet, and filled the Planet with all forms of Life, and even CHOSE to be one of His Creation to give them Eternal Life through Death/Shame/Suffering and is now fulfilling His Prophecies ALL for His Glory!