Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[VARob]

Quite fortunately, God comes to such broken people and gives beauty for the ashes of their lives.

God is willing to do that for anyone.

 

[Magenta]

I used the term perfect to depict sinlessness, not absolute perfection. Faultless.

Ah! I see .. Along those same lines, when we are commanded to be perfect as our Father in heaven
is perfect, how do you understand that? For me it is a matter of being complete in Him. Finding our
all-in-all, in Him. Just to bring this back to A&E (not that I had planned to, but my thoughts just
naturally went there), even though they walked and talked with God, they must have felt something
was missing to try to gain what Satan promised them, which always strikes me as strange, since he
promised them life, actually that they would not die (and that was the lie), when they had access to
the Tree of Life. How wonderful is God to know how they would respond regardless. Just to add to this,
some say the lie was that they would be like God to know good and evil, but God said they had become
like Him to know good and evil, so that was not a lie. Adding again .. Some also say they did not know
good before that, but I say that is not possible, since they knew God, Who is good, and His creation,
which God proclaimed good.

 

[Cameron143]

God is willing to do that for anyone.

It wasn't a deliberate attempt to leave people out. It was merely a characterization of a common estate of mankind.

 

[Cameron143]

Ah! I see .. Along those same lines, when we are commanded to be perfect as our Father in heaven
is perfect, how do you understand that? For me it is a matter of being complete in Him. Finding our
all-in-all, in Him. Just to bring this back to A&E (not that I had planned to, but my thoughts just
naturally went there), even though they walked and talked with God, they must have felt something
was missing to try to gain what Satan promised them, which always strikes me as strange, since he
promised them life, actually that they would not die (and that was the lie), when they had access to
the Tree of Life. How wonderful is God to know how they would respond regardless. Just to add to this,
some say the lie was that they would be like God to know good and evil, but God said they had become
like Him to know good and evil, so that was not a lie. Adding again .. Some also say they did not know
good before that, but I say that is not possible, since they knew God, Who is good, and His creation,
which God proclaimed good.

The hamster running on the wheel in your head must be training for the Olympics. Mine has a cane. There's alot in what you said and certainly some insight into their motivation to sin can be gleaned from the temptation and its appeal. But my hamster is on break so if you were looking for clarity, even Mem would be a better source than me currently. But those are intriguing thoughts.

 

[Magenta]

The hamster running on the wheel in your head must be training for the Olympics. Mine has a cane.
There's alot in what you said and certainly some insight into their motivation to sin can be gleaned
from the temptation and its appeal. But my hamster is on break so if you were looking for clarity,
even Mem would be a better source than me currently. But those are intriguing thoughts.

I did keep adding and would have added more but my five minute edit window closed .

Adding again: so they already knew good, but now knew good and evil.

The evil they knew was in disobeying God.

 

[Mem]

But my hamster is on break so if you were looking for clarity, even Mem would be a better source than me currently.

Yada yada yada
Yada, that is the Hebrew for "to know." And in Genesis 3:22 it is of the infinitive construct of the form of Qal and functions expressing purpose, result, or complementary action of a main verb (with preposition), and in rare occasions also functions as a noun. The main verb here is "has become (like one of us)" and the infinitive is "knowing" (acting as a noun?) and the strong's offers this verse as an example of "1.a. know, learn to know."
Apparently, although good was all around them, they did not know, or were familiar nor intimate with it. And neither did they know evil.

 

[Cameron143]

Yada yada yada
Yada, that is the Hebrew for "to know." And in Genesis 3:22 it is of the infinitive construct of the form of Qal and functions expressing purpose, result, or complementary action of a main verb (with preposition), and in rare occasions also functions as a noun. The main verb here is "has become (like one of us)" and the infinitive is "knowing" (acting as a noun?) and the strong's offers this verse as an example of "1.a. know, learn to know."
Apparently, although good was all around them, they did not know, or were familiar nor intimate with it. And neither did they know evil.

Nice job. I thought that comment was going to cost me way more than that.

 

[Magenta]

Yada yada yada
Yada, that is the Hebrew for "to know." And in Genesis 3:22 it is of the infinitive construct of the form of Qal and functions expressing purpose, result, or complementary action of a main verb (with preposition), and in rare occasions also functions as a noun. The main verb here is "has become (like one of us)" and the infinitive is "knowing" (acting as a noun?) and the strong's offers this verse as an example of "1.a. know, learn to know."
Apparently, although good was all around them, they did not know, or were familiar nor intimate with it. And neither did they know evil.

I was going to say, yada yada yada, while testifying earlier today but thought
it would seem somehow disrespectful, so said "all that jazz" instead .

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, that is the false narrative some have constructed in their arguments against total depravity, which
is actually embraced by both Arminians and Calvinists, and Molinists also, although they have modified
it to radical depravity. Man can and does do good, but without faith it is... impossible to please God. It is
not about living a good life and/or being a good person. It is about agreeing with God about your state
before Him, and we all fall short and are unworthy by our own merits of the great love and care He lavishes
upon us. It is about acknowledging our need of Him, and our gratitude toward Him for what He sent His Son
to do on our behalf. People devoid of faith cannot do that, regardless of how altruistic they are.

Like the tax collector. Unable to even look up. Cried out for Gods mercy.

He went home justified.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It is also a fact that without help from God Himself, none would seek Him. I have heard it said
that man was created to worship, and when not in subjection to God, mankind worships all
manner of other things: money, power, and prestige being chief among them. It is nothing
short of idolatry. Man worships himself and creation instead of worshipping the Creator.

A hole was left in our hearts. and we spend a lifetime trying to fill that hole.

We try to fill it with drugs, alcohol. Sex, Food, Toys, Power, Fame etc etc.

The problem is these things only temporarily make us think we are filling that hole, but non of those things can fill that hole, so we need more and more and more! hence why addiction is so strong, we desperately want to fill that hole only God can fill.

That's also the reason The prodigal son comes back. Once you have the hole filled. If you try to go back to the things you did before. It is a greater loss.. Not only have you had the hole filled before with Gods love.. But you are chastened by God..Having witnessed this personally in my life. It is hard to explain. But unless you have been there.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I agree with all you have said except for Adam and Eve being made perfect .. God proclaimed them good,
and had they chosen to eat from the Tree of Life instead of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and
evil, they made have attained the perfection we are all set for once we submit our lives to Him and His plan
for humanity, which was purposed from before the foundation of the world, for we are perfected in Christ .

I see them as sinless. hence alive to God. The moment they sinned, they died to God. and the seperation between God and all mankind came to effect. (in adam all die)

 

[rogerg]

The natural man is hostile towards God. It is a hard pill to
swallow when we are told it is because we love our sin.

No! We are told that natural (unsaved) man is such, not because they sin, but rather, they sin because they are natural man.
Natural man CANNOT know God nor the things of God because they are not revealed to natural man. God, and the things of God, are only revealed by His Spirit to those who have become saved/born again by God.

[1Co 2:10 KJV] 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

t is also a fact that without help from God Himself, none would seek Him.

Not "without help from God", but rather, that God causes it to happen.

[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

 

[AcceptedintheBeloved]

The atonement was and is a transaction between the Father and Messiah Jesus seen in the following verse.

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”

God’s justice was satisfied when God looked at the utter travail (anguish, despair, being undone) of Jesus soul. Where were we when this transaction took place, we were more than 2000 years from being born, we had nothing to do with God being satisfied.

It is the pride of man to think that an act of disobedience is greater than God’s satisfaction with Jesus’s offering.

 

[Fundaamental]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.".

I think i know why you where reluctant to tell me if you where saved or not, is it the same reason as me, your unsure ?.

Has it' turned into a debate for you ?.

has the thought crossed your mind salvation may not come for a while, and you could not have fully believed. As it seems obvious That Being an Indian Giver is not fruitful. Which would suggest God is unfruitful. Which is a sin.

They went out from but did not do what was expected of us could mean, they called on the name of the lord but did not do the will of the father, but does that mean it's truly over for them. ?

Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away.".

The new seed is also put into a heart of stone which is in every new believer.

My thoughts are the seed will take longer for some to turn the stone into a softer substance.

and withering away is the same as the scripture that says The grass withers the flowers fade but the lords word will still stand forever.

So when more Grass withers God word is still there for them, or when branches bare bad fruits God cuts them, for new branches to bloom.

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.".

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.".

This clearly suggests they never received the seed in the first place.

"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation.".

no where in the above passage clearly illustrates that number one they received salvation or number two they forfeited it. All tho it does explain the enemy can make you think you have.

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

Falling away is not a clear illustration you have lost something, it could mean you stumble from time to time.
But also it could mean you are yet to do the full will of the father. Or you are yet to recieve salvation, possibly a deliverance issue also.

How ever one thing is clear whilst we may look to other scriptures to back other insertions up, it can be dangerous to always lean on this method, which I think you have when you have used the term debunked, but that may not be a true conviction on your heart and maybe an expression based on accumulation.

You can make anything add up my friend, but it's more difficult to share and subtract. Especially if your listening to the enemy.

 

[Magenta]

No! We are told that natural (unsaved) man is such, not because they sin, but rather, they sin because they are natural man.

Are you suggesting that you do not sin any more?

 

[Magenta]

Not "without help from God", but rather, that God causes it to happen.

[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

That verse is to believers.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The atonement was and is a transaction between the Father and Messiah Jesus seen in the following verse.


God’s justice was satisfied when God looked at the utter travail (anguish, despair, being undone) of Jesus soul. Where were we when this transaction took place, we were more than 2000 years from being born, we had nothing to do with God being satisfied.

It is the pride of man to think that an act of disobedience is greater than God’s satisfaction with Jesus’s offering.

I like your conviction.

But where do your thoughts relate in matters concerning how 1 human being differs from another in how God makes Himself known to them and they either receive Him or deny Him.

Is the decision to accept God or deny God, God's decision being made, or a human soul choosing whom this day they will Serve?

 

[ResidentAlien]

I think i know why you where reluctant to tell me if you where saved or not, is it the same reason as me, your unsure ?.

Has it' turned into a debate for you ?.

has the thought crossed your mind salvation may not come for a while, and you could not have fully believed. As it seems obvious That Being an Indian Giver is not fruitful. Which would suggest God is unfruitful. Which is a sin.

They went out from but did not do what was expected of us could mean, they called on the name of the lord but did not do the will of the father, but does that mean it's truly over for them. ?






The new seed is also put into a heart of stone which is in every new believer.

My thoughts are the seed will take longer for some to turn the stone into a softer substance.

and withering away is the same as the scripture that says The grass withers the flowers fade but the lords word will still stand forever.

So when more Grass withers God word is still there for them, or when branches bare bad fruits God cuts them, for new branches to bloom.

This clearly suggests they never received the seed in the first place.

no where in the above passage clearly illustrates that number one they received salvation or number two they forfeited it. All tho it does explain the enemy can make you think you have.

Falling away is not a clear illustration you have lost something, it could mean you stumble from time to time.
But also it could mean you are yet to do the full will of the father. Or you are yet to recieve salvation, possibly a deliverance issue also.

How ever one thing is clear whilst we may look to other scriptures to back other insertions up, it can be dangerous to always lean on this method, which I think you have when you have used the term debunked, but that may not be a true conviction on your heart and maybe an expression based on accumulation.

You can make anything add up my friend, but it's more difficult to share and subtract. Especially if your listening to the enemy.

I wasn't reluctant to tell you if I was saved or not; I'm 100% sure I will inherit eternal life. I didn't want to get into a discussion with you about whether you're saved or not. I see it all the time here, people asking for help with this or that when they don't want help; they just want longwinded discussions that lead nowhere. Kinda like what you've done here. I'll tell you now like I told you then—look to God and the Bible for guidance, not other people.

 

[Fundaamental]

I wasn't reluctant to tell you if I was saved or not; I'm 100% sure I will inherit eternal life. I didn't want to get into a discussion with you about whether you're saved or not. I see it all the time here, people asking for help with this or that when they don't want help; they just want longwinded discussions that lead nowhere. Kinda like what you've done here. I'll tell you now like I told you then—look to God and the Bible for guidance, not other people.

There's nothing wrong with having a discussion, but if your not always in the mood for one, I can understand, but there is assumption on your part for me engaging with your long discussion here.

But I don't get how you would think you could forfeit something so precious.

And the call that a reason for debunking salvation.

The only way I believe somebody could walk away after inheriting a a new incoruptable seed in my honest opinion for what it's worth to you right now as you read this.

Is that person has falling for temptation, or something bad has happened, or that person has become damaged in the brain.

Which as I've just expressed my opinion already New flowers wither which is what you are but the lords word will stand forever,

How ever you could be a new flower and wither, but have you really lost your seed or lost your way.

For you to believe other people could forfeit there salvation would still mean Gods new incoruptable seed born through Jesus is still corruptible.

Which would also imply Jesus going to the cross was all in vain.

How ever since I don't know you I'm not going to assume this of you, perhaps you have had a change of heart since you opened this thread.

can I just ask was the change instant for you when you knew you where 100 percent saved.