Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You need to first understand the difference between a "royal grant covenant" and a "suzerain-vassal covenant" before making any unfounded assertions. Conflating the two distinct covenants is cause for confusion, faulty doctrine and mayhem.

Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties
Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties (gracelife.org)

"The purpose of this paper is to provide a brief overview of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will evaluate the nature of each; specifically how each can be likened to the ancient near eastern (ANE) Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaties. I will provide stipulations of each covenant, the time aspect, and the promised rewards and/or consequences of disobedience of each. Before beginning though it will be helpful to define what a covenant is and then more specifically what a Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaty is; and then compare and contrast this with the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will conclude with the importance of each and how each of the covenants relates to the modern believer."

Exactly!!! The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional and everlasting. Nothing they could do would take the land from them permanently, God was the only one responsible to up hold the covenant. Mosaic wasn't.

 

[IsaiahA]

Apparently a moderator refused a post I submitted so I'll place it here. This will be my last because it is tiring to deal with such irrational people with no reading comprehension. As an 81 y.o., patience is not my strongest grace.

I sat under the preaching of dispensationalism for the first 30 years of my life and finally I was brought to see that much of the preaching came out of the footnotes, not the scriptures. If you are brought up on this heresy found in the footnotes, it becomes as if the footnotes are also scripture and it is very difficult to study oneself out of it. God's people in the Old Covenant were believers from the one nation of Israel; under the New Covenant, God's people Israel are believers out of all nations. Dispensationalists deny the statements I've presented below, with the scriptures that give the truth. Check the contexts and make sure these are 'proof texts', not 'spoof texts'.

Israel's land promise already fulfilled & completed: Gen. 15:18-21; Josh 21:43-45, 23:14-16; Ex. 23:27-30; Num. 34:1-12; 1 Kgs 4:20,21; 2 Chro. 9:22-28; Neh. 9:23, 24

The Jewish theocracy was ended 1st C: Mt. 21:43-45; Lk 20:16-18; Jn 4:21-23

There is only one people of God, not two: Gal. 3:7-9; Rm. 2:28-29, 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:15-16; Phil. 3:3; Col. 3:11

The church is Israel continued: Heb. 12:18-24; 1 Pet. 2:9-10; Gal. 6:15-16(RSV, NEB, REB)

OT prophecies applied to Christ & his church: Acts 3:24-26; 1 Pet. 1:10-12; Acts 2:16-21, 29-36; 15:13-21; John 19:36-37; Heb. 8:1-13; Lk 1:17; Mt. 11:13-14

Kingdom of heaven and Kingdom of God are the same: Mt. 19:23-24; compare the parallel passages in the synoptics, Mt. 4:17, 23 with Mk 1:14-15; Mt. 5:3 with Lk 6:20; Mt. 8:11-12 with Lk 13:28-29; Mt. 13:11 with Mk 4:11

The kingdom came at the 1st Advent: Mt.12:28, 16:28; Lk 11:20, 17:20-21; Col. 1:13

Christ is King now: Jn. 1:49, 12:14-16; Acts 2:29-36; Mt. 2:2; Rv. 1:5; Lk 1:32-33

Christ reigns now: 1 Pt. 1:22; Eph. 1:20, 21; Mt. 28:18; Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 2:29-36;

Christians, new creation reign now: Rm. 5:17, 8:17; Eph. 2:6; Rv. 1:6;

Satan is bound now: Mt. 12:28-29; Jn 12:27, 31; 16:11; Lk 10:17-18; Heb. 2:14

1000 is frequently figurative: Psa. 50:10, 91:7, 105:8; Isa. 30:17, 60:22(KJV, NEB, REB)

The kingdom of God increases from 1st C: Isa. 9:7, 55:10-11; Mt. 16:18; 1 Co. 15:24-26; Lk 13:18;

One general resurrection, not 3 or more: Acts 17:31-32, 24:15; Jo. 5:28-29; "on the last day", Jn. 6:39, 40, 44, 54; Daniel 12:2

One general judgment: "on the last day", Jn. 12:48; 2 Pt. 2:9, 3:7; 1 Jn. 4:17; Rv. 20:11-15

Time of 2nd coming unknown, no signs given: Mt. 24:36, 44; Lk. 12:39-40; Acts 1:7; 1 Thess. 5:1-2;

Apocalyptic Language is Figurative, Symbolic as in the OT

God in clouds: Isa. 19:1; Nah. 1:3; Psa. 104:3
Sky, sun, moon, stars: Isa. 13:1, 10, 19, 20; 34:4, 5; Eze. 32:2, 7-8
Hail, fire, brimstone: Psa. 18:12-13; Isa. 28:1-2
Earthquakes, heaven: 2 Sam. 22:1, 7-16
Smoke forever: Isa. 34:5, 10
Darkness: Dt. 4:11-12

Dispensationalists don't use context to determine if a passage is literal or figurative; they decide this based on if it supports their heretical scheme or not. If the scripture statements don't support them, they invent new creative nomenclature.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [re: Post #202] A couple of brief points (for now):

--"Amil-teachings" (and others) mistakenly believe that "David's throne" changed locations to now be located up in Heaven (where Christ is seated now); but this is because they do not grasp the TWO distinct "RAISE" issues being spoken of in Acts 3--ONE speaking of Jesus being "raised" to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross; the OTHER speaking of His being "raised" from the dead AFTER the Cross;


--"IN the Last Day"... where "the Last Day" is a very lengthy time-period, with MUCH transpiring WITHIN it; it is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day" (I've posted about this in many past posts, so won't take the time to do so here in this post); failing to grasp this sets one off on the wrong track, regarding several matters

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Acts 17:31 "...He hath FIXED A DAY *in which*...", for example, is a very lengthy time-period, not merely "a singular 24-hr day"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [re: Post #202]

"1000 is frequently figurative"

Wherever the word "YEARS" is used with any number ("_____ YEARS"), it always means THAT MANY "YEARS"

(IOW, the writer wants the reader to *THINK*... "____[that many] YEARS" [one example: "1000 YEARS"<--the writer wants the reader to think: THAT MANY "YEARS"])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [re: Post #202]

Dispensationalists ACKNOWLEDGE that verses such as the following...


"And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them." Dan8:10...


... are NOT speaking of the twinkling things we see up in the skies at night.





IOW, Dispensationalists DO recognize the matter of "CONTEXT" (etc).

 

[cv5]

Certain specific "time prophecies" (regarding the "punish you SEVEN TIMES MORE") were indeed fulfilled in both May 14, 1948 (for Israel) and in June 7, 1967 (for Jerusalem)... and I think there are possibly two others which I don't have off the top of my head;

And that doesn't conclude UNTIL the "42 months" spoken of in Rev11:2 (same word as "TRODDEN DOWN" that's in this Luke 21:24 verse we're talking about), which is the second half of the future Tribulation period--so at the END of that, will be when it concludes--at Christ's Second Coming to the earth, when Daniel 2:35 is fulfilled: "broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors" and "that no place was found for them")

Yep. After review I have to agree with your opinion.
OK then I will start to denote this as the fulfillment of the "seven times more" prophecy regarding Israel......

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Israel's land promise already fulfilled & completed: Gen. 15:18-21; Josh 21:43-45, 23:14-16; Ex. 23:27-30; Num. 34:1-12; 1 Kgs 4:20,21; 2 Chro. 9:22-28; Neh. 9:23, 24

You think you're frustrated?! Lol!! I have posted a map of the land promised to Abraham as an UNCONDITIONAL and EVERLASTING possession to he and his descendants.

This real simple, has Israel ever possessed ALL the land on the map? NO!! Secondly, how long is ETERNALLY?!
That's not in footnotes man, that's Scripture that you might as well rip out of your Bible. God made an unconditional promise to the Jew and if He won't keep His promise to the Jews, He won't keep His promise to YOU!

There is only one people of God, not two

Romans 11, Jews blinded for a time, will be restored. Look it up!!

The church is Israel continued

Flat out heresy and Antisemitism taught by early church fathers who were Catholic like Luther. The church DOES NOT replace Israel. Replacement theology is heresy.

OT prophecies applied to Christ & his church:

Some do, some don't. I can throw out 20 random Scriptures too. smh One you posted even said Paul was talking to his fellow Israelites. rofl You're grafted in, salvation is to the Jew first, then everyone else. You replace no one, you are grafted in.

Romans 11 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Dispensationalists don't use context to determine if a passage is literal or figurative;

This is an actual piece of land. It has borders, it exists in the world. It was promised to Abraham through an unconditional, everlasting covenant. This isn't some Smurf village. Israel has never possessed this land, but they will because God made a covenant with them. If God breaks His covenant to the Jew He will break His covenant to you!!

 

[cv5]

Yep. After review I have to agree with your opinion.
OK then I will start to denote this as the fulfillment of the "seven times more" prophecy regarding Israel......

Better yet, just call it the end of the "captivity of the nation/Jerusalem" judgement.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Either the book of Joshua is a lie, or John MacArthur is a liar! Who do I believe, the Holy Spirit inspired, inerrant word of God; or John MacArthur? I'll believe the Bible.

The Torah closes with an anticipation of a fulfillment of this promise to Abraham in the conquest of the land under Joshua in the near future (Deut. 31:1–8). However, the Torah predicts that Israel would forfeit the land because of disobedience and be scattered among the nations (Deut. 29:22–28). In the distant future, after the scattering (Deut. 4:30–31), the LORD will return repentant Israel to the land in accordance with His covenant with Abraham (Lev. 26:40–45).39

(So) Yahweh would go before the nation as He lead them to bring them into the land (Deut 31:3), (2) but in spite of Yahweh’s faithfulness, Israel would fall away and serve other gods (Deut 31:16) because (3) even when Moses was alive the intents of their hearts were already away from God (Deut 31:21b). Because of this (4) Yahweh would ultimately disperse the disobedient people into the nations (Deut 30:1), (5) the land would enjoy its sabbaths (Lev 26:43), but (6) He would not reject or abhor His people (Lev 26:44–45). Eventually, (7) after the blessing and the curse had come upon the people in all the nations where Yahweh had dispersed them (Deut 30:1), (8) the nation collectively would repent and return to the LORD (Deut 30:2). Then (9) Yahweh would regather them into the land from their captivity (Deut 30:3–5). Yet even beyond these blessings, (10) Yahweh Himself will one day circumcise their hearts and the hearts of their descendants “to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live” (Deut 30:6). Furthermore (11) God Himself would inflict strong judgments on the nations who afflicted Israel..., Yahweh had previously promised, (12) “I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I will curse”

Finally, after Yahweh has brought every bit of these elements about, (13) the nation will again obey Him, living in total covenant obedience (Deut 30:8) and then receive once more God’s covenant blessings on them (30:9–10). These verses require God’s strong judgment for disobedience on the Jewish nation yet contain His promise for the same people whom He judged to again obey Him after they had once been disobedient and thus afflicted by Him, including even exile into pagan nations. If anyone claimed such blessings for the New Testament church, according to context of Deuteronomy 30, they can occur only after “the blessing and the curse” has come upon them, and they are banished to all the different nations where God had banished them (Deut 30:1).

continued in next post...

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If anyone claimed such blessings for the New Testament church, according to context of Deuteronomy 30, they can occur only after “the blessing and the curse” has come upon them, and they are banished to all the different nations where God had banished them (Deut 30:1).

continued in next post...

It should also be noted that Joshua would have been quite familiar with the promises and warning of the recently given Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28–30, as well as the ultimate future hope for both the land and the Jewish nation revealed in Lev 26:40–45.4

Another important item that is often neglected by those who quote Josh 21:43–45 as a proof text that God has already fulfilled the land promises of the Abrahamic Covenant is the division of the land given in Joshua 13–21. Joshua 13– 21 is one segment within the book, and individual chapters must be viewed within this context.

The opening verse of the this section, Josh 13:1, is extremely important in that God Himself evaluated what He had accomplished thus far as well as what remained yet to be accomplished: “Now Joshua was old and advanced in years when the LORD said to him, ‘You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land remains to be possessed.’” Yahweh then delineated groups within the land that were part of the “very much of the land that remains to be possessed”
Josh 13:2–7

Because of Josh 13:1–7, which deals with particulars related to the land of Canaan, let alone the added reference in Joshua 1:4 to the territory associated with the Euphrates that exists outside of the land that they currently occupied, it is beyond argument that Israel never possessed the land as stipulated in the Abrahamic Covenant during the days of Joshua.

 

[iamsoandso]

Exactly, but the part I agree with is that the land belongs to Israel given to them by God through the Abrahamic Covenant.

Let me ask you something,,,

In Daniel 7:14 the Messiah is who will establish the kingdom(an everlasting dominion) https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-14.htm me ect.) ,,,
Do you think that the kingdom, an everlasting dominion that it speaks of the messiah establishing is what is being spoken of in Joshua 21:43-45 or are they different? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/joshua/21.htm Why I'm asking this is because those things in Joshua's day and the kingdom it says the Messiah would establish(an everlasting dominion) seem to be two different things because if what Joshua is speaking of in his day was the same thing as the kingdom spoken of in Daniel then in Daniel 7:14 he would be replacing a kingdom with another because in Daniel it speaks of it as future tense as if what was spoken of in Daniel had not yet taken place.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Flat out heresy and Antisemitism taught by early church fathers who were Catholic like Luther.

Pretty much, lol.



Here's an old post of mine where I quote from a Catholic source, which says,

[quoting] "...along with covenant theologians, Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the “new Israel” (cf. CCC 877)." " [end quoting from that old post; bold and underline mine]

--From Post #4739 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4592185

[to which post, at the bottom, I'd added my own comment in the context of that particular thread's convo... my comment saying, "We do not believe that ^ ." (when the context of that thread's convo had turned toward incorrectly accusing Dispensationalists as following the footsteps of RC'ism...; Not!)]



The "CCC 877" reference is to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (second edition), where it states, "The Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as 'the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy.' " [bold emphasis mine]





[see this article: The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament (middletownbiblechurch.org) ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

--"Amil-teachings" (and others) mistakenly believe that "David's throne" changed locations to now be located up in Heaven (where Christ is seated now); but this is because they do not grasp the TWO distinct "RAISE" issues being spoken of in Acts 3--ONE speaking of Jesus being "raised" to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross; the OTHER speaking of His being "raised" from the dead AFTER the Cross;

Just to add a few references to this ^ :

--"raised / raise / raised up / raise up [G450]" (to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross) Acts 3:22,26 (Acts 7:37);

--see also, Deut18:15,18 LXX "raise / raise up [G450]" ^

--see another example, used in this same way: Acts 7:18, "till another king AROSE [G450], which knew not Joseph" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/act/7/18/ss1/s_1025018 (NOT speaking here of this person having been "raised" FROM THE DEAD, but rather the kind of "raised [/arose - G450]" that is to a position of prominence)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Another important item that is often neglected by those who quote Josh 21:43–45 as a proof text that God has already fulfilled the land promises of the Abrahamic Covenant is the division of the land given in Joshua 13–21.

It does not matter what was stated in Joshua. Israel did not extend from the Nile to the Euphrates at that time, or at any time until 70 AD. And from 70 AD to 1948 AD Israel did not even exist in Palestine. It is only after the Second Coming of Christ that redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes) will be settled in Greater Israel. The present nation-state of secular Israel is in rebellion against Christ. And the LGBTQ agenda is in full force in that country. God calls present Israel "SODOM AND EGYPT". But that will all change.

 

[iamsoandso]

It does not matter what was stated in Joshua. Israel did not extend from the Nile to the Euphrates at that time, or at any time until 70 AD. And from 70 AD to 1948 AD Israel did not even exist in Palestine. It is only after the Second Coming of Christ that redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes) will be settled in Greater Israel. The present nation-state of secular Israel is in rebellion against Christ. And the LGBTQ agenda is in full force in that country. God calls present Israel "SODOM AND EGYPT". But that will all change.

Yes that beast that received the deadly wound in ad70,,,those who dwell on the earth were deceived and made an image of that beast (kingdom) and those dwelling on the earth set it back up and worship it's image... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-14.htm

 

[Nehemiah6]

Flat out heresy and Antisemitism taught by early church fathers who were Catholic like Luther. The church DOES NOT replace Israel. Replacement theology is heresy.

Replacement Theology originated with the Catholic Church but many Protestant denominations failed to reject it. We should keep in mind that this accompanies the persecution of the Jews in Europe. The assumption was that God was finished with Israel, and the prophecies concerning a future redeemed and restored Israel (and Jerusalem) were ignored.

 

[notmyown]

It should also be noted that Joshua would have been quite familiar with the promises and warning of the recently given Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28–30, as well as the ultimate future hope for both the land and the Jewish nation revealed in Lev 26:40–45.4

Another important item that is often neglected by those who quote Josh 21:43–45 as a proof text that God has already fulfilled the land promises of the Abrahamic Covenant is the division of the land given in Joshua 13–21. Joshua 13– 21 is one segment within the book, and individual chapters must be viewed within this context.

The opening verse of the this section, Josh 13:1, is extremely important in that God Himself evaluated what He had accomplished thus far as well as what remained yet to be accomplished: “Now Joshua was old and advanced in years when the LORD said to him, ‘You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land remains to be possessed.’” Yahweh then delineated groups within the land that were part of the “very much of the land that remains to be possessed”
Josh 13:2–7

Because of Josh 13:1–7, which deals with particulars related to the land of Canaan, let alone the added reference in Joshua 1:4 to the territory associated with the Euphrates that exists outside of the land that they currently occupied, it is beyond argument that Israel never possessed the land as stipulated in the Abrahamic Covenant during the days of Joshua.

reading the first three chapters of Judges will show you what happened with this.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Replacement Theology originated with the Catholic Church but many Protestant denominations failed to reject it. We should keep in mind that this accompanies the persecution of the Jews in Europe. The assumption was that God was finished with Israel, and the prophecies concerning a future redeemed and restored Israel (and Jerusalem) were ignored.

Yes, true, and then the fact that they both "repented" of the teaching after and because of the Holocaust. That is why this belief is so insipid and dangerous.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

reading the first three chapters of Judges will show you what happened with this.

God has never and will never turn His back on Israel and the promises He made to Abraham will be fulfilled. God's message to the Jews has never changed, repent, return, restore. Romans 11 made this 110% clear. The church in no way replaces the Jews. The covenant made with Abe was unconditional and everlasting. I must have said this a hundred times on here. Yet people still try to ignore the Word. smh