Two main issues

[wattie]

You have to repent; you have to turn from your sin; yes, you have to be serious about changing. However, the Lord doesn't look at a person's outward performance but their heart, their sincerity. He doesn't expect a person to be perfect but He does expect them to be willing to change. If someone is just mouthing some words in hope to get saved then yeah, they're trusting in their own merit. But if someone says the words and means them He will save them.

What do you suppose the Lord would think if someone knelt before Him and said: Lord, save me. I have no intention of changing; I have no interest in stopping sinning; I just don't want to go to Hell. Unfortunately, that's actually what most people these days think salvation is.

What you're saying sounds like dogma taken to the extreme and has become devoid of any common sense.

Salvation is knowing you can do nothing of yourself to be saved. The changed life comes after. It's not a commitment to good works.. it's an acknowledgement you are a sinner and need deliverance.

There will be fruit from salvation happening of course.. but that fruit isn't what caused it

 

[Magenta]

This is just a side bar.

I really like the flow of colors in this panel, just wondering why she only has one earing?

Thank you! My work is a mélange, as I put together various "ephemera" in a collage design,
starting with a blank canvas, using a selection of various bits I have collected over the last
five years, which number well over 12,000 by now LOL. So the girl started out looking like this:

And on one side I added part of this woman:

I collect these various pieces from sites that offer them free for use in personal projects .

John 5:24
Some women do only wear one ear ring... though I do not wear them myself .

 

[HeIsHere]

Thank you! My work is a mélange, as I put together various "ephemera" in a collage design,
starting with a blank canvas, using a selection of various bits I have collected over the last
five years, which number well over 12,000 by now LOL. So the girl started out looking like this:

And on one side I added part of this woman:

I collect these various pieces from sites that offer them free for use in personal projects .

John 5:24
Some women do only wear one ear ring... though I do not wear them myself .

Yes I like the hair in the compilation.

Once I went to work with only one earring, but I survived the event.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Salvation is knowing you can do nothing of yourself to be saved. The changed life comes after. It's not a commitment to good works.. it's an acknowledgement you are a sinner and need deliverance.

There will be fruit from salvation happening of course.. but that fruit isn't what caused it

I agree it's not a commitment to good works that saves. But if a person turns from their sin and makes a commitment start doing good works, what's wrong with that? It's a lot better than making a commitment to keep doing evil. Just because a person makes a commitment to do good works when they turn to the Lord that doesn't mean they're automatically practicing works salvation. That's what you want it to mean but I don't agree at all.

I'm still puzzled by why you think anyone is even teaching this. So far all you've done is keep saying someone or other is creating a big issue by teaching that people must make a commitment to good works before they can be saved. You mentioned John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Paul Washer and some Campus Crusade pamphlet; but you haven't shown anything that can demonstrate that this is what they actually teach. I'm beginning to think you've decided you know what theology MacArthur, Comfort, Washer and Campus Crusade embrace so you've assumed that this must be what they teach. Without providing something concrete to examine it's virtually impossible to know if you're on track or off in left field. Maybe that's what you prefer, I don't know.

Anyway, I have some Jello I've been meaning to nail to the wall; maybe I'll have better luck with that.

 

[Magenta]

What do you suppose the Lord would think if someone knelt before Him and said: Lord, save me. I have no intention of changing; I have no interest in stopping sinning; I just don't want to go to Hell. Unfortunately, that's actually what most people these days think salvation is.

You haven't shown anything that can demonstrate that this is what anyone actually teaches/thinks/believes. I think you've decided you know what theology others embrace so you've assumed that this must be what they teach/think/believe. Without providing something concrete to examine it's virtually impossible to know if you're on track or off in left field. Maybe that's what you prefer, I don't know.

^ Your words (essentially) right back at you...

 

[wattie]

I agree it's not a commitment to good works that saves. But if a person turns from their sin and makes a commitment start doing good works, what's wrong with that? It's a lot better than making a commitment to keep doing evil. Just because a person makes a commitment to do good works when they turn to the Lord that doesn't mean they're automatically practicing works salvation. That's what you want it to mean but I don't agree at all.

I'm still puzzled by why you think anyone is even teaching this. So far all you've done is keep saying someone or other is creating a big issue by teaching that people must make a commitment to good works before they can be saved. You mentioned John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Paul Washer and some Campus Crusade pamphlet; but you haven't shown anything that can demonstrate that this is what they actually teach. I'm beginning to think you've decided you know what theology MacArthur, Comfort, Washer and Campus Crusade embrace so you've assumed that this must be what they teach. Without providing something concrete to examine it's virtually impossible to know if you're on track or off in left field. Maybe that's what you prefer, I don't know.

Anyway, I have some Jello I've been meaning to nail to the wall; maybe I'll have better luck with that.

Ok.. what is wrong with a commitment to Jesus of good works at salvation is first.. that's coming from you... Not from Jesus...

Second .. if you fail in that commitment after salvation.. then what? Never saved in the first place? Lost salvation?

That is what is wrong with the commitment to good works. It's relying on performance.

But also .. with the campus crusade tract.. when after salvation you are not faithful..they have another tract about putting God 'back on the throne of your life'.

Which means ..they assume you are making God no 1 in every area of your life at salvation.

Still performance based

 

[studentoftheword]

It's believing He is God, died and rose again, lived sinless. That by believing in Him you have eternal life.

This word believing here is not just believing in a general way that He is God ----died and rose again and lived sinless ------

Anyone can believe Jesus is God ---etc ---the demons believe Jesus is God but they aren't saved ------

The word believe here goes deeper than just believing ------you need to trust in and adhear to God and His truth ----

Also you must confess with your mouth that Jesus Is Lord ------Confessing out loud is declaring your True Faith in God ----what you have confidence in --you will speak out -------

This is the scripture ----and Notice the IF YOU -----Many think as long as they believe in Jesus they are saved ----well it is not quite that simple ---it goes a little deeper than that ------


Romans 10:9

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Ok.. what is wrong with a commitment to Jesus of good works at salvation is first.. that's coming from you... Not from Jesus...

Second .. if you fail in that commitment after salvation.. then what? Never saved in the first place? Lost salvation?

That is what is wrong with the commitment to good works. It's relying on performance.

But also .. with the campus crusade tract.. when after salvation you are not faithful..they have another tract about putting God 'back on the throne of your life'.

Which means ..they assume you are making God no 1 in every area of your life at salvation.

Still performance based

Just because a person makes a commitment to stop sinning and start doing good that doesn't automatically mean their salvation is based on works. You're making a lot of assumptions; you're condemning a lot of people for doing something un-Biblical but you can't provide one link that shows an example of what you're talking about. What comes after the commitment to do good works? Do they admit their sin and call on the Lord to save them? I don't know because I haven't seen any examples of what you're talking about.

If I was at a church service and the preacher said to someone: Do you promise to stop sinning? And the person says: Yes. Then the preacher says: Bless you, you're worthy of salvation, welcome to God's family. If that happened, I'd say yeah, that's not the gospel or salvation at all. But I've never heard or seen anything remotely close to that and would be very shocked if I did.

 

[Magenta]

If I was at a church service and the preacher said to someone: Do you promise to stop sinning?
And the person says: Yes. Then the preacher says: Bless you, you're worthy of salvation, welcome
to God's family. If that happened, I'd say yeah, that's not the gospel or salvation at all. But I've
never heard or seen anything remotely close to that and would be very shocked if I did.

People have been banned from this site for relentlessly and ruthlessly pushing
a sinless salvation. Count your blessings not to have encountered such.

 

[oyster67]

“Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone”
does this mean we get to ignore what Jesus said about salvation and be saved too ?

No.
Works are not a condition for maintaining salvation, but continued faith in the spirit of humility is. We must never be too proud to repent and seek forgiveness when we stumble (and we will.)

 

[JohnDB]

Anyway, I have some Jello I've been meaning to nail to the wall; maybe I'll have better luck with that.

Awwww....don't take it out on the Jello!

What did the jello ever do to you?

I like gelatin products...so tasty and wiggly. I use just a touch of gelatin when I make real chocolate mousse....so it will hold just a tad longer than it would otherwise. It's really good, rich, and chocolatey.

Then I also use something akin to lemon Jello as a glaze on my fruit tarts so they will stay fresh longer.

Then there's parfaits....everyone likes parfaits....parfaits got layers...like onions or cakes.

So stop trying to nail up the Jello on the wall as a decoration....it's got plenty of other places to be that are so much more useful.

 

[wattie]

This word believing here is not just believing in a general way that He is God ----died and rose again and lived sinless ------

Anyone can believe Jesus is God ---etc ---the demons believe Jesus is God but they aren't saved ------

The word believe here goes deeper than just believing ------you need to trust in and adhear to God and His truth ----

Also you must confess with your mouth that Jesus Is Lord ------Confessing out loud is declaring your True Faith in God ----what you have confidence in --you will speak out -------

This is the scripture ----and Notice the IF YOU -----Many think as long as they believe in Jesus they are saved ----well it is not quite that simple ---it goes a little deeper than that ------


Romans 10:9

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Again using the devil's believe comparison is off. Devils never entrust their salvation with Jesus.

Of course someone still entrusts their salvation with Jesus. That is plain.. in Romans 10:9-10 as you say.

My point is there is no work in confession and trusting. That's all happening at salvation under His conviction.

 

[Gojira]

There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular at the moment.

One is Lordship salvation. This is where salvation depends on you lessening sin in your life before you can be saved or means that if you are saved, you WILL be continuously faithful after salvation.

It's 'back loading' works into salvation and is quite subtle.. but messes with the Holy Spirit's power to convict and save an individual aside from any effort on their part.

In lordship salvation, many still get saved anyway, because it usually has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved anyway. But it can lead to false conversion.

The other main problem is baptismal regeneration which has no salvic capability, yet is getting more popular.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved ... as a picture of salvation, not the vehicle of salvation.

The vehicle is God.. Jesus the Messiah, who by believing in Him, anyone has eternal life. Not by water baptism, not by reducing sin in your life and then you are saved.

Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone .. not your effort, not because you reduced sin. It's not from you.. it's all from His sacrifice and deliverance. Full stop .

What happens after being saved is to build a close relationship with Him and build rewards I heaven.... Not to get into heaven.

I think part of the problem with the baptism thing is the verse that reads, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

 

[Snacks]

There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular at the moment.

One is Lordship salvation. This is where salvation depends on you lessening sin in your life before you can be saved or means that if you are saved, you WILL be continuously faithful after salvation.

It's 'back loading' works into salvation and is quite subtle.. but messes with the Holy Spirit's power to convict and save an individual aside from any effort on their part.

In lordship salvation, many still get saved anyway, because it usually has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved anyway. But it can lead to false conversion.

The other main problem is baptismal regeneration which has no salvic capability, yet is getting more popular.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved ... as a picture of salvation, not the vehicle of salvation.

The vehicle is God.. Jesus the Messiah, who by believing in Him, anyone has eternal life. Not by water baptism, not by reducing sin in your life and then you are saved.

Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone .. not your effort, not because you reduced sin. It's not from you.. it's all from His sacrifice and deliverance. Full stop .

What happens after being saved is to build a close relationship with Him and build rewards I heaven.... Not to get into heaven.

Thank you, wattie for posting this. It’s refreshing to read posts from people who understand the fullness of God’s grace.

 

[wattie]

I think part of the problem with the baptism thing is the verse that reads, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

Yes, so this is just one verse though. Take it out of the paragraph and book it is in and it can mean anything.

Compare it with all the loads of verses.. pretty much the entire book of John. That gives the real picture.

It's got to be in context

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think part of the problem with the baptism thing is the verse that reads, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

Yes, that is part of the problem. But the main problem is the misinterpretation of John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This goes all the way back to Ezekiel 36:25-27 where God speaks of "clean water" and the New Birth.

Many Christian do not understand what that "water" is. It is the Word of God and the "washing" is by the Word of God (the Gospel itself). Peter calls the imperishable Gospel "the seed" which brings about the New Birth. James echoes Peter and calls it "the Word of Truth". And the way this happens is that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). So when the full and true Gospel is preached it becomes "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION" under the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is a living Word, "quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword".

It would appear that Justin Martyr originated the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration, and nobody corrected that. So it became an integral part of the teaching of the Catholic Church. But H2O cannot regenerate anyone. It is God the Holy Spirit who supernaturallly regenerates believers (Titus 3:4-7).

 

[Magenta]

Titus 3:4-5

 

[Edify]

I haven't seen ANY commitment to good works spoken about BEFORE salvation. Not one jot.
Is there good works expected by God AFTER salvation? Yes there is.
Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [l]this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Works does not save, but not doing what God prepared in us to do is disobedience. Disobedience leads to falling away from the faith & those who fall away don't inherit eternal life.

 

[wattie]

I haven't seen ANY commitment to good works spoken about BEFORE salvation. Not one jot.
Is there good works expected by God AFTER salvation? Yes there is.
Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [l]this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Works does not save, but not doing what God prepared in us to do is disobedience. Disobedience leads to falling away from the faith & those who fall away don't inherit eternal life.

Every one disobeys at some point. What is the standard?

 

[mustaphadrink]

There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular at the moment.

One is Lordship salvation. This is where salvation depends on you lessening sin in your life before you can be saved or means that if you are saved, you WILL be continuously faithful after salvation.

It's 'back loading' works into salvation and is quite subtle.. but messes with the Holy Spirit's power to convict and save an individual aside from any effort on their part.

In lordship salvation, many still get saved anyway, because it usually has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved anyway. But it can lead to false conversion.

The other main problem is baptismal regeneration which has no salvic capability, yet is getting more popular.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved ... as a picture of salvation, not the vehicle of salvation.

The vehicle is God.. Jesus the Messiah, who by believing in Him, anyone has eternal life. Not by water baptism, not by reducing sin in your life and then you are saved.

Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone .. not your effort, not because you reduced sin. It's not from you.. it's all from His sacrifice and deliverance. Full stop .

What happens after being saved is to build a close relationship with Him and build rewards I heaven.... Not to get into heaven.

The instruction on the day of Pentecost was very clear "Repent AND be baptized for the forgiveness of sin,,, Could anything be clearer than that? Note - Repent AND be baptised.