Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

[cv5]

Yes devised in the 1880's and then how fortuitous Israel became a nation again.

https://christianchat.com/threads/matthew-24-34-fig-tree-generation.209931/post-5032570

"The thing is......Israel IS now an independent nation. And there is every reason to believe that the "captivity of the nation" of 606BC has ended since 1948.

http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

2520 (360 day) years from both 606BC (1948 nation) and 586BC (1967 Jerusalem). Not a coincidence, not by a longshot.
The precise day for setting the start of prophetic clock is known for the 1967 retaking of Jerusalem.

Start of the 70 year judgement:
Eze 24:1
Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 24:2
Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.
2Ki 25:1
And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.
Jer 52:4
And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it, and built forts against it round about.

End of the 70 year judgement. Prophetic clock STARTS TICKING HERE to 1967.
Hag 2:15
And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD:
Hag 2:18
Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider it."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I find it incomprehensible how anyone can call themselves a Bible-believing Christian and say Joshua contains lies. Here is what is recorded by Joshua:

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers

Pay careful attention to what is written there... and think about... what is missing.








Genesis 13:15 had said, "[to Abram, v.14]... For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

So, Abraham's children/offspring took the land (Joshua says)... but the promise in Gen13:14-15 states specifically "TO THEE will I give it, AND TO..." (which awaits fulfillment, when Abraham is resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)], yet future ; ) )




[I'd made a post on that, recently]

 

[cv5]

I believe the 7 churches represent the church throughout history. All weren't necessarily present throughout every period in history , but combinations of them can certainly be found today.
I personally think the church is still in its infancy and the end isn't anywhere near.

More properly stated the Church the Body is near to it's final terminus and is at the very cusp of the rapture, aka the "end of the age" for the Church. We do not have millennia left in the building phase....we have mere seconds by comparison.

But the really the key question I need to ask you is this:
Biblically, what is your opinion of the final state and fate of the Church in particular?
Concordantly, of the gentiles and Israel?

I mean your eschatology is so nondescript and foggy its like it doesn't exist at all.

 

[IsaiahA]

Pay careful attention to what is written there... and think about... what is missing.








Genesis 13:15 had said, "[to Abram, v.14]... For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

So, Abraham's children/offspring took the land (Joshua says)... but the promise in Gen13:14-15 states specifically "TO THEE will I give it, AND TO..." (which awaits fulfillment, when Abraham is resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)], yet future ; ) )




[I'd made a post on that, recently]

Thank God for the true Bible scholars of centuries ago, such as Matthew Poole (1624-1679) who comments on Gen. 13:15 in his commentary -

Object. Abram could see but a little part of the land.

Answ.

1. He might now possibly be upon a mountain, from whence he might have a large prospect every way.

2. He gave him all that he saw, but not only that, but also the rest of the land, and therefore he bids him walk through and view the whole land, Gen 13:17.

Quest. How was the land given to Abram, when it is expressly said: He, i.e. God, gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on, Act 7:5.

Answ.

1. God gave Abram the right to it, though not the actual possession of it, until the time that God appointed; as God gave the right of the kingdom to David, but not the possession till Saul's death.

2. God explains himself, To thee and to thy seed, i.e. to thee, that is, to thy seed, and that for thy sake; the particle and being put oft for that is, as 1Ch 21:12, compared with 2Sa 24:13; Eph 1:3, and in many other plaecs, as we shall see.

Quest. How was this for ever, when after some hundreds of years they were turned out of it?

Answer.

1. This promise was made to them upon condition of their obedience, which is oft expressed in other places, as Lev 18:26; Deu 4:25-26; Isa 48:18-19.

2. The word olam, rendered for ever, doth not always signify eternity, but a long continuance, as is evident from Gen 17:13; 48:4; Exo 21:6; Psa 132:14, and many other places of Scripture; and in particular, when it is applied to the Jewish rites and privileges, it commonly signifies no more than during the standing of that commonwealth, or until the coming of the Messias; and so it may here be understood.

One of the other Puritans, John Trapp makes an interesting comment on Isa. 11:11 -

The Lord shall set his hand again the second time.] Not to bring them back to the promised land, to Palestina, as once he did out of Egypt; that is but a rabbinical dream, not unlike that other - viz., that all Jews, in what country soever they are buried, do travel through certain underground passages till they come to their own country of Jewry.

 

[cv5]

1. This promise was made to them upon condition of their obedience, which is oft expressed in other places, as Lev 18:26; Deu 4:25-26; Isa 48:18-19.

You need to first understand the difference between a "royal grant covenant" and a "suzerain-vassal covenant" before making any unfounded assertions. Conflating the two distinct covenants is cause for confusion, faulty doctrine and mayhem.

Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties
Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties (gracelife.org)

"The purpose of this paper is to provide a brief overview of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will evaluate the nature of each; specifically how each can be likened to the ancient near eastern (ANE) Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaties. I will provide stipulations of each covenant, the time aspect, and the promised rewards and/or consequences of disobedience of each. Before beginning though it will be helpful to define what a covenant is and then more specifically what a Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaty is; and then compare and contrast this with the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will conclude with the importance of each and how each of the covenants relates to the modern believer."

 

[cv5]

No. I don't think so.

He is right bro. Seriously. He is.
With the possible exception that the times of the gentiles have in fact concluded as of May 14, 1948.
Though this is a matter of some speculation. But it is a beautiful fit with certain OT prophecies.

 

[HeIsHere]

Indeed. And right on time mind you.....

Nice to see you have a sense of humor... you did make me laugh!

I will take a look at the links, thank you, as I do think it is important to stay informed.

 

[cv5]

Nice to see you have a sense of humor... you did make me laugh!

I will take a look at the links, thank you, as I do think it is important to stay informed.

Aaahhhhmmm.....no but I am being entirely serious. Passionate prophecy hierophant that I am.
Heavily into genealogies/chronologies/Biblical archaeology/history too.
A skill set that the VAST majority of Christians are woefully lacking.

But yea, God is not marking out an exact specific day for no reason. Not one student out of a thousand has
any idea of what to do with these verses. In their greatest application.

How about you? First timer is my guess by your shocked incredulous reaction.

Eze 24:1
Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 24:2
Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.
2Ki 25:1
And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.
Jer 52:4
And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it, and built forts against it round about.

End of the 70 year judgement. Prophetic clock STARTS TICKING HERE to 1967.
Hag 2:15
And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD:
Hag 2:18
Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider it."

 

[cv5]

The Lord shall set his hand again the second time.] Not to bring them back to the promised land, to Palestina, as once he did out of Egypt; that is but a rabbinical dream, not unlike that other - viz., that all Jews, in what country soever they are buried, do travel through certain underground passages till they come to their own country of Jewry.

There are innumerable prophecies and passages that say that ethnic Jacob WILL INDEED be redeemed as a people and nation to inhabit the land promised to Abraham. Boilerplate. Beyond all doubt and speculation.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Actually, they (Israel the nation) never possessed the deed per se.
The Israelites were in fact tenants. YHVH was the Landlord.

They got the boot because of their transgressions against the Landlord.

Well, I think if we agree the Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional and everlasting, and it was, that God chose a people and a land and essentially gave that land to the chosen people. So while they did transgress and lost use of the land when they sinned, they never lost the deed because the Abrahamic is the covenant that back stops the covenant that God made with Noah.

 

[cv5]

Well, I think if we agree the Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional and everlasting, and it was, that God chose a people and a land and essentially gave that land to the chosen people. So while they did transgress and lost use of the land when they sinned, they never lost the deed because the Abrahamic is the covenant that back stops the covenant that God made with Noah.

Basically agree yes, the Abrahamic covenant is now, today, still in full force and will inevitably be fully realized yet future.
As to who ultimately holds the "title deed" well that is a different matter.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I find it incomprehensible how anyone can call themselves a Bible-believing Christian and say Joshua contains lies.

No one said Joshua lied.

Not one of all the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, RSV)
.

Up to that point in time. But they have not yet obtained the entire land promised to them, nor have they stayed in the land for an everlasting time period. So maybe you're using verses as proof text that aren't.

The book of Joshua is dated around 1400 BC and here today, 3423 years later, dispensationalists say the statements I underlined are not true and are still awaiting fulfillment.
.

Nope, no one said they are untrue, they are saying there are other things you're not taking into account. No is saying the Bible is lying, so stop putting words in peoples mouth.

Read the asinine reasons put forth to claim those are lies in Joshua.

Lie !!!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Basically agree yes, the Abrahamic covenant is now, today, still in full force and will inevitably be fully realized yet future.
As to who ultimately holds the "title deed" well that is a different matter.

We basically agree I think. I think... lol

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

With the possible exception that the times of the gentiles have in fact concluded as of May 14, 1948.

Certain specific "time prophecies" (regarding the "punish you SEVEN TIMES MORE") were indeed fulfilled in both May 14, 1948 (for Israel) and in June 7, 1967 (for Jerusalem)... and I think there are possibly two others which I don't have off the top of my head;



But the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" relates to the "dream / statue / image" of Neb (with Neb as "head of gold"--606/5bc), which must include ALL PARTS of said "image"... that is, all of the "♫ head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, knees and toes... ♫ " lol

And that doesn't conclude UNTIL the "42 months" spoken of in Rev11:2 (same word as "TRODDEN DOWN" that's in this Luke 21:24 verse we're talking about), which is the second half of the future Tribulation period--so at the END of that, will be when it concludes--at Christ's Second Coming to the earth, when Daniel 2:35 is fulfilled: "broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors" and "that no place was found for them")




[I do agree with those saying that the "dry bones prophecy" (re: Israel) is fulfilled in STAGES, over some time... like, standing before the breath is breathed into them, etc]

 

[cv5]

Certain specific "time prophecies" (regarding the "punish you SEVEN TIMES MORE") were indeed fulfilled in both May 14, 1948 (for Israel) and in June 7, 1967 (for Jerusalem)... and I think there are possibly two others which I don't have off the top of my head;



But the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" relates to the "dream / statue / image" of Neb (with Neb as "head of gold"--606/5bc), which must include ALL PARTS of said "image"... that is, all of the "♫ head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, knees and toes... ♫ " lol

And that doesn't conclude UNTIL the "42 months" spoken of in Rev11:2 (same word as "TRODDEN DOWN" that's in this Luke 21:24 verse we're talking about), which is the second half of the future Tribulation period--so at the END of that, will be when it concludes--at Christ's Second Coming to the earth, when Daniel 2:35 is fulfilled: "broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors" and "that no place was found for them")




[I do agree with those saying that the "dry bones prophecy" (re: Israel) is fulfilled in STAGES, over some time... like, standing before the breath is breathed into them, etc]

Yes the "seven times more" calculations are not a coincidence. Let us know what else you come up with.....

 

[cv5]

More properly stated the Church the Body is near to it's final terminus and is at the very cusp of the rapture, aka the "end of the age" for the Church. We do not have millennia left in the building phase....we have mere seconds by comparison.

But the really the key question I need to ask you is this:
Biblically, what is your opinion of the final state and fate of the Church in particular?
Concordantly, of the gentiles and Israel?

I mean your eschatology is so nondescript and foggy its like it doesn't exist at all.

"the Church which is His Body"

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Object. Abram could see but a little part of the land.

Answ.

1. He might now possibly be upon a mountain, from whence he might have a large prospect every way.

2. He gave him all that he saw, but not only that, but also the rest of the land, and therefore he bids him walk through and view the whole land, Gen 13:17.

This is the land God unconditionally promised to Abraham and his descendants as an EVERLASTING possession. So either God and the Bible lied, or your interpretation is wrong. I wonder which it is....

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is the land God unconditionally promised to Abraham and his descendants as an EVERLASTING possession.

Correct. So why would any Christian have any problem with this? Christians are within the Body of Christ and their eternal home is the New Jerusalem. And believe it or not, it is also the eternal home of Abraham, for he looked for a city which has foundations, who Builder and Maker is God. There is only one city with 12 foundations, and it is a cubic city which is 1500 miles in each direction (length, breadth, and height). This glorious and magnificent city was designed and constructed by God Himself (which again shows the grace of God). So while God promised Greater Israel on earth to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He also planned to have Abraham in the New Jerusalem (which has countless mansions).

 

[IsaiahA]

I'll quote Josh 21:43-45 and then the statement from MacArthur's Study Bible -

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to their ancestors that he would give them; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their ancestors; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, NRSV)

Last line of John MacArthur's Study Bible annotation -

"But God's people failed to exercise their responsibility and possess their land to the full degree in various areas."

But Joshua reads "ALL THE LAND"!

Either the book of Joshua is a lie, or John MacArthur is a liar! Who do I believe, the Holy Spirit inspired, inerrant word of God; or John MacArthur? I'll believe the Bible.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Either the book of Joshua is a lie, or John MacArthur is a liar! Who do I believe, the Holy Spirit inspired, inerrant word of God; or John MacArthur? I'll believe the Bible.

Or Joshua meant "up until this time" and Mac Arthur isn't taking into consideration other texts like
Lev.26 " Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD” God said He would scatter and bring them back from the lands He sent them to. They will return to the land 2x, once in unbelief and the second time purified. Then the land will be an everlasting possession.