Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Stick with what the TEXT ITSELF is telling us was the context of the false claim (v.2)

EDIT: meant to say "content"




____________


Just to add this: when one misapprehends what the CONTENT of the false claim is, per verse 2, it skews the entire passage away from what Paul is actually conveying in this text;

and when one mis-defines the phrase "the day of the Lord" as something COMMENCING at the point of Christ's Second Coming to the earth (instead of what 1Th5:1-3 tells us: at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"), then this also skews the passage away from Paul's intended meaning here in 2Th2... a passage notoriously misinterpreted.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We are [Ihope] ALL agreed the church cannot be on earth during the period of God's wrath.

I believe we are agreed as to this; however, we are not agreed as to just WHEN His "wrath" will commence to unfold upon the earth.

I believe "the seven LAST plagues" (i.e. the Vials) are not its commencing; but are rather, "[for in them] the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not, is started and completed).







So for the readers: what I'd spelled out in my Post #1195 was this:


[quoting that post]

Let the readers consider:

--Ezra 5:12 - "But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon."


--in Hab1:6,12, it says, " O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans, v.6] for judgment [to execute judgment]; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans] for correction."


--in Lam2:3-4 (in the midst of "wrath" words, and "IN FLAMING FIRE" words), the language is parallel to what we see in parts of 2Th1&2, especially 2Th2:7b-8a saying "... only the one restraining at present will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become [/come to be] AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."; Which is parallel language to Lam2:3-4 "... he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying, 'HAVE AT 'EM!' i.e lifting His restraint!], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."
[INSERTING NOTE: THIS CONTEXT IN LAM2:3-4 ^ IS GOD USING THE INSTRUMENT, "THE CHALDEANS / BABYLONIANS," TO EXECUTE HIS "JUDGMENT"--i.e. AS THE INSTRUMENTS CARRYING OUT HIS "WRATH"--as in Ezra 5:12 at top]


--the START of the TRIB is when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) BY His opening the FIRST SEAL (rider on white horse with a BOW ['BOW' often meaning DECEPTION]"), aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 which is Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"]
[see bottom of this post]



--the Trib yrs are WHEN the FINAL aspect of Neb's "dream / statue / image" (with Neb as "HEAD of gold") will be unfolding upon the earth (as God's JUDGMENTs...; before the BLESSINGs aspect OF the DOTL earthly time-period will thereafter exist on the earth, aka the MK age)

[end quoting Post #1195]



____________

Seal #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 which is Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (bringing deception)] IS the "instrument" of God's "wrath" (just like the Chaldeans / Babylonians and Neb as "HEAD of gold" were!)... i.e. the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the "man of sin" (2Th2:9a) IN HIS TIME (2Th2:6) (aka the AC... the "prince THAT SHALL COME")

 

[cv5]

Seal #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 which is Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (bringing deception)] IS the "instrument" of God's "wrath" (just like the Chaldeans / Babylonians and Neb as "HEAD of gold" were!)... i.e. the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the "man of sin" (2Th2:9a) IN HIS TIME (2Th2:6) (aka the AC... the "prince THAT SHALL COME")

Completely agree......

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Completely agree......

Right.

And this is what is meant by:

"the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING" - 1Th1:10


--"the wrath coming" corresponds precisely with the [timing of the] "whose coming" (i.e. "the man of sin"), aka Seal #1... the INITIAL "birth PANG" Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception ('BOW' often meaning 'deception')]); THIS is when "the man of sin BE REVEALED" (at the START of the Trib), not at the later "SITTETH in the temple of God" point in the chronology (2Th2:4b);


--"the man of sin" being His instrument of "wrath" (just as the "Chaldeans / Babylonians [and Neb]" were)... starting [yet future] at SEAL #1 (the same point in the chronology as the "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" thing, per Dan9:27a[,26b "prince that SHALL COME / COMING"--corresponding with the wording in 1Jn2:18a "IS COMING"])

 

[cv5]

we've seen it all before, the plain scriptures say Antichrist comes first in order of time.

Did you forget about these two chapters perhaps?
And who do you say these persons represent?
You do realize that chronologically Revelation chapters 4 & 5 PRECEDE the events of chapter 6....correct?


Rev 4:4
And around the throne are thrones twenty and four, and upon the thrones I saw the twenty and four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and they had upon their heads crowns of gold;

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[KeithB]

Gods words spoken by Paul to us,
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Let how many men deceive you? NO MAN not your pastor, small group leader me or anyone else. Please do not let yourself be one of those that God sends a strong delusion upon. "And that man of sin (who is that man of sin? Satin, the devil, or any other name) be revealed the son of perdition.
Please do not tell me that you are not one of those that do not believe every verse of the bible is not God inspired.
These are the wors of Jesus recorded by Matthew as he was with Jesus. These are not my words.

The Parable of the Weeds

(Ezekiel 17:1-10)

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

(Zephaniah 1:1-6)

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
If you do not like the KJV let's try another.
Lets try the NIV
The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

[cv5]

The "false claim" (v.2) involved the matter that something "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

(the "false claim" did not consist of what they'd "missed"--there is no evidence whatsoever supplied in the text that would inform us that the words of any false claimants included the idea of [their] "missing" or "having missed" something, but rather, that [something in particular] "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]").



Stick with what the TEXT ITSELF is telling us was the context of the false claim (v.2), without injecting "ideas" INTO the wording provided in verse 2 itself (about what the false claim itself consisted of), and one will come to see more clearly what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this context / passage. = )




[v. 2 "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... and we know from his first letter, about its ARRIVAL point in time...]

@Evmur stumbles over this aspect of the text...........every - single - time.
Some kind of reading comprehension problem.....who knows?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@KeithB 's Post #1206,

bear in mind that "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (Matthew 13:24 and context) refers to His promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth);


With that in mind, one can begin to see that this context is concerning THAT (not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" whatsoever).

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom...

[NO "RAPTURE" is being covered in this context, anywhere]

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

@Evmur stumbles over this aspect of the text...........every - single - time.
Some kind of reading comprehension problem.....who knows?

I know what you're doing is a bullying tactic against someone you don't agree with, but it's not what Christians are suppose to do.

I don't care if you do a lot of research. It comes to nothing if you're not obedient to God and talk about @Evmur or any other Christian that way.

You need to apologize to him and repent of this.

❧

 

[cv5]

I know what you're doing is a bullying tactic against someone you don't agree with, but it's not what Christians are suppose to do.

I don't care if you do a lot of research. It comes to nothing if you're not obedient to God and talk about @Evmur or any other Christian that way.

You need to apologize to him and repent of this.

❧

Just speaking the truth in love. And making sure others do not fall into the same pit of ignorance and confusion.
And how about you? Aiding and abetting faulty doctrine? Or learning with all humility and diligence from your elders?

Oh and another thing that you may have not considered: there is only ONE true doctrine as regards the rapture. Not many.....ONE only.
And @TheDivineWatermark has rightly propounded the accurate biblical truth of the matter. As everyone can see.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Just speaking the truth in love. And making sure others do not fall into the same pit of ignorance and confusion.

You are full of it.

Proverbs 11:13 Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets,
but he who is trustworthy in spirit keeps a thing covered.

1 Timothy 5:13 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.


You are so full of hubris that you don't even realize you've just disrespected someone else to put him down before others. Disgusting!

On top of that, he's your elder. Elders deserve respect. He's been around longer than you have.

Leviticus 19:32 “Stand up in the presence of the elderly, and show respect for the aged. Fear your God. I am the LORD."

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”


I don't expect you to repent because you're so full of yourself. But I want it written down for the record what kind of person you are. At least I'm not talking "behind your back." I'm saying all this directly addressed to you.

And about the rapture. Doesn't matter what you believe and how wrong you think I or other post-tribbers are. In the end, God will prove us right.

 

[cv5]

You are full of it.

Proverbs 11:13 Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets,
but he who is trustworthy in spirit keeps a thing covered.

1 Timothy 5:13 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.


You are so full of hubris that you don't even realize you've just disrespected someone else to put him down before others. Disgusting!

On top of that, he's your elder. Elders deserve respect. He's been around longer than you have.

Leviticus 19:32 “Stand up in the presence of the elderly, and show respect for the aged. Fear your God. I am the LORD."

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”


I don't expect you to repent because you're so full of yourself. But I want it written down for the record what kind of person you are. At least I'm not talking "behind your back." I'm saying all this directly addressed to you.

And about the rapture. Doesn't matter what you believe and how wrong you think I or other post-tribbers are. In the end, God will prove us right.

You are just a kid. I suggest serious study rather than vain unintelligible ranting.
And teachers do not get any better than @TheDivineWatermark
@Evmur is way off the rails as regards the tribulation and rapture. Thats a fact. A fact that needs to be marked out lest others stumble into the same folly.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Right.

And this is what is meant by:

"the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING" - 1Th1:10

I appreciate you. You're never rude or obnoxious even when you disagree. 💝

 

[Evmur]

@Evmur stumbles over this aspect of the text...........every - single - time.
Some kind of reading comprehension problem.....who knows?

Mr Darby made up the doctrine that every mention in the bible of "that day" must refer to "the day of the Lord" it's one of his tricks to make pre trib work.

... like the "departure" trick.

 

[cv5]

On top of that, he's your elder.

First of all, I am rather advanced in years. Quite advanced.
Secondly, elders actually know the truth as it is presented in Scripture, and can teach it accurately.

By those criteria, he certainly is no elder of mine.

Another thing that you might care to notice:
You have yet to offer/provide any "value added" Biblical references or passages to support your doctrine.
Not that there ARE ANY. But that is not my point........

 

[cv5]

Mr Darby made up the doctrine that every mention in the bible of "that day" must refer to "the day of the Lord" it's one of his tricks to make pre trib work.

... like the "departure" trick.

Already been thru this. And yet you keep resurrecting the Darby straw man.

https://christianchat.com/posts/5034068/
https://christianchat.com/posts/5034089/

 

[KeithB]

Gods words spoken by Paul to us,
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Let how many men deceive you? NO MAN not your pastor, small group leader me or anyone else. Please do not let yourself be one of those that God sends a strong delusion upon. "And that man of sin (who is that man of sin? Satin, the devil, or any other name) be revealed the son of perdition.
Please do not tell me that you are not one of those that do not believe that every verse of the bible is not God inspired.
Copied from Biblehub.com KJV
The Parable of the Weeds

(Ezekiel 17:1-10)



24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I could explain this to you, but I am not sure you would believe me, so lets just see what Jesus had to say about the meaning.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

(Zephaniah 1:1-6)



36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
You may not like the KJV so here is the explanation from the NLT.
Parable of the Wheat and Weeds Explained

36Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.”

37Jesus replied, “The Son of Mand is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world,e and the harvesters are the angels.

40“Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

Any translation you want to look at has Gods people staying here on earth till Jesus returns

@KeithB 's Post #1206,

bear in mind that "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (Matthew 13:24 and context) refers to His promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth);


With that in mind, one can begin to see that this context is concerning THAT (not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" whatsoever).








"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom...

[NO "RAPTURE" is being covered in this context, anywhere]

No where in that parable does it say heavenS you are adding to Gods word.

 

[KeithB]

@KeithB 's Post #1206,

bear in mind that "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (Matthew 13:24 and context) refers to His promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth);


With that in mind, one can begin to see that this context is concerning THAT (not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" whatsoever).








"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom...

[NO "RAPTURE" is being covered in this context, anywhere]

There are heavens; there is the earth's atmosphere then you have inner space the space between the earth's atmosphere and outer space. Heaven as referred to in the Bible is wherever God is.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @KeithB ,

[#1218] No where in that parable does it say heavenS you are adding to God's word.

In the Greek text, the word is in the PLURAL, as shown here:

-- https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/13-24.htm

[and here]

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/13/24/t_concir_942024


[hope that second link takes you directly to the "tools" at BLB... where it shows this fact... it should take you there]





____________

"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [throughout Matthew] is not UP IN Heaven, as many suppose.





Additionally, this context is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" anywhere in it.

 

[Cameron143]

There are heavens; there is the earth's atmosphere then you have inner space the space between the earth's atmosphere and outer space. Heaven as referred to in the Bible is wherever God is.

Psalm 139 David says that should he ascend to heaven or descend to hell that God would be there. This refers to His omnipresence and not His dwelling place.