Salvation is for the Whole World

[ForestGreenCook]

I believed in spiritual things but was still lacking in faith. I have no idea why you are asking me that question. I am also not at home and am on my phone grrrrrr lol

Sorry I caught you at a bad time.

My point in my post, was to question you, as to the possibility of whether you can have belief in the things of the Spirit, without having faith, that comes as a fruit of the Holy Spirit that indwells you in the new birth.

If I had possession of magical sight, I would not have emailed you at a bad time. I apologise.

 

[Magenta]

That is quite a list of names that he is called by. I believe the scriptures to teach that Jesus, while he was a man, he was also, God.

I believe that all of those that God gave to Jesus were saved eternally, by Jesus's death on the cross. I also believe that when they live their lives here on earth, and commit a sin, they die (=separate) themselves from their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent.

However, they do not lose their eternal inheritance. An unrepented sin, of one of those he saved on the cross, will not keep them out of heaven, as Jesus has already redeemed them of the sin.

Is this in agreement with your thoughts?

Good morning Forest. I missed this yesterday. Yes, Jesus is God. All those God gives to Jesus will come to Him and none will be lost nor ever be cast out. I am not in agreement with the belief that people, when they sin after being saved, die to God. God chastens His sons. How can we be aware of such if we are dead to Him? We are made alive in Him. Jesus paid the sin debt for the whole world, but only those who believe by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood reap the benefit of this, which is to say, they escape the second death, having attained to life ever after, for Christ Jesus is the life of men, and those who are not in Him, those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, pass out of existence following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This issue is never resolved. People on one side of the fence never move to the other.
When Christ returns, it will be settled once and for all.

But for the life of me, I will never understand why people are attracted to Calvinism.

I believe that they are attracted to what the harmonizing scriptures teach. You are the one that is injecting Calvinism into it.

 

[Magenta]

Sorry I caught you at a bad time.

My point in my post, was to question you, as to the possibility of whether you can have belief in the things of the Spirit, without having faith, that comes as a fruit of the Holy Spirit that indwells you in the new birth.

If I had possession of magical sight, I would not have emailed you at a bad time. I apologise.

No worries, Arthur. I was in a restaurant waiting for the goodies I was picking up to
take over to my daughter's place for dinner with her and her aunt .. I am not very
proficient at posting on my phone... I don't know how people do it all the time! I was
simply expressing my frustration and did not mean to make you feel responsible for it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Good morning Forest. I missed this yesterday. Yes, Jesus is God. All those God gives to Jesus will come to Him and none will be lost nor ever be cast out. I am not in agreement with the belief that people, when they sin after being saved, die to God. God chastens His sons. How can we be aware of such if we are dead to Him? We are made alive in Him. Jesus paid the sin debt for the whole world, but only those who believe by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood reap the benefit of this, which is to say, they escape the second death, having attained to life ever after, for Christ Jesus is the life of men, and those who are not in Him, those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, pass out of existence following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age.

I believe that we can be aware of God, when we are separated from his fellowship, because when he quickened us to the new spiritual life, he exchanged our heart of stone, to a fleshy heart that can be pricked, by his chastening, to feel spiritual guilt.

I enjoy being on this forum, and discussing scripture. It helps us to understand each other better, and keeps us informed, and refreshed in the truths that are found in Christ's doctrine.

 

[Mem]

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. (Jn 17:9)

i find this perplexing, because if your interpretation is true, we have the Lord Jesus dying for "the world", enduring the wrath of God for them, paying the penalty due them, but He won't even pray for them??

perhaps we ought to look at the numerous ways the Apostle John uses the word world?

Jn17:20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, , 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus said, and I'm probably paraphrasing, "I stand at the door and knock. Anyone that opens to Me, I will come in and sup with him." I suppose that there are those that consider opening the door, when you hear Jesus knocking, as a work?

I think that hear=understand.

This is a message to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans. Jesus knocks on the minds, and those who hear (John 10:26-29) he will come into their minds, and feed them with spiritual food.

This is not an act of eternal deliverance, but it is a refreshing of the mind, and can deliver (save) them from a lack of spiritual growth.

 

[Mem]

I think that hear=understand.

This is a message to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans. Jesus knocks on the minds, and those who hear (John 10:26-29) he will come into their minds, and feed them with spiritual food.

This is not an act of eternal deliverance, but it is a refreshing of the mind, and can deliver (save) them from a lack of spiritual growth.

John 17:21b so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

those already One in Christ have already believed and have no need for Jesus be knocking "at the entrance of" their soul.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. (Jn 17:9)

i find this perplexing, because if your interpretation is true, we have the Lord Jesus dying for "the world", enduring the wrath of God for them, paying the penalty due them, but He won't even pray for them??

perhaps we ought to look at the numerous ways the Apostle John uses the word world?

You have to look at the rest of the chapter that John 17:9 belongs to. You'll see that there's no conflict.

The Lord Jesus did die for the whole world, meaning everyone, so that the gift of salvation is offered to everyone.

But in John 17 the Lord prays specifically for His people (those who willingly take that gift of salvation) and fully explains why.

John 17:11-26
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

This passage just says that the Lord had been protecting them and kept them safe while He was with them, but now that He's coming home, He's asking His Father to protect them.

The next passage tells why they need to be protected and shows why this prayer is only about them and not the world.


13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

From this passage we can see that the world hates God's people and that God's people don't belong to this world. They are sanctified. That's why the Lord specifically prays for His people because of the hostility against them.

But if any of the world chooses to receive the Lord's gift of salvation at any time, they too will become God's child, will be sanctified and will be hated by the world too.


20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

This part gives me goosepimples because the Lord is actually praying about us! He's wasn't just praying for the disciples with Him!


24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

He's praying for His people who are/were willing to receive His free gift of salvation to be with Him where He is right now!


25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they [God's people] know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Again, this is why the prayer is specifically for the Lord's people. This time so that God's people will have love for the Lord in them and that He Himself may be in them (through the Holy Ghost) to live through them.


-=<>=-

So there's really no conflict between the Lord dying for the whole world and the Lord specifically praying for the protection and continued care of His people living on earth.

You can't just take one verse and then make a conclusion from that. You have to read the rest of the pertinent passages to get a better idea of what was being said and why.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jn17:20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, , 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Babes in Christ do not have many beliefs, Just as newborn babies do not, until they go through a teaching, and learning process. There is a deliverance from ignorance, when a newborn babe in Christ comes unto a knowledge of the gospel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

John 17:21b so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

those already One in Christ have already believed and have no need for Jesus be knocking "at the entrance of" their soul.

If you think that you have no need to be refreshed in the gospel, then you must be of all people most miserable. Pride comes before the fall.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You have to look at the rest of the chapter that John 17:9 belongs to. You'll see that there's no conflict.

The Lord Jesus did die for the whole world, meaning everyone, so that the gift of salvation is offered to everyone.

But in John 17 the Lord prays specifically for His people (those who willingly take that gift of salvation) and fully explains why.

John 17:11-26
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

This passage just says that the Lord had been protecting them and kept them safe while He was with them, but now that He's coming home, He's asking His Father to protect them.

The next passage tells why they need to be protected and shows why this prayer is only about them and not the world.


13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

From this passage we can see that the world hates God's people and that God's people don't belong to this world. They are sanctified. That's why the Lord specifically prays for His people because of the hostility against them.

But if any of the world chooses to receive the Lord's gift of salvation at any time, they too will become God's child, will be sanctified and will be hated by the world too.


20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

This part gives me goosepimples because the Lord is actually praying about us! He's wasn't just praying for the disciples with Him!


24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

He's praying for His people who are/were willing to receive His free gift of salvation to be with Him where He is right now!


25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they [God's people] know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Again, this is why the prayer is specifically for the Lord's people. This time so that God's people will have love for the Lord in them and that He Himself may be in them (through the Holy Ghost) to live through them.


-=<>=-

So there's really no conflict between the Lord dying for the whole world and the Lord specifically praying for the protection and continued care of His people living on earth.

You can't just take one verse and then make a conclusion from that. You have to read the rest of the pertinent passages to get a better idea of what was being said and why.

Salvation, predestination, the called, justification, glorification, all were accomplished, by Jesus death on the cross, as a sacrifice to redeem, those that God gave him, and Jesus said that "it is finished, there will be no more sacrifice for sins"

Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Salvation, predestination, the called, justification, glorification, all were accomplished, by Jesus death on the cross, as a sacrifice to redeem, those that God gave him, and Jesus said that "it is finished, there will be no more sacrifice for sins"

Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

People can read the Bible for themselves. No one should just take your word for it - especially when you don't take the whole counsel of the Bible and the Holy Spirit into consideration.

If anyone wants to ask me about what Salvation as a free gift offered to the whole world is about, you guys can stop by my profile or if you have the ability to message me, you can do that. I'll provide the verses you can study yourselves.

Certain people on this thread loves debating in endless circles that go nowhere thinking having the last word makes them "win" even if they're wrong.

 

[Magenta]

Babes in Christ do not have many beliefs, Just as newborn babies do not, until they go through a teaching, and learning
process. There is a deliverance from ignorance, when a newborn babe in Christ comes unto a knowledge of the gospel.

A "newborn babe in Christ" has already accepted the gospel, have they not? .

 

[Sipsey]

A "newborn babe in Christ" has already accepted the gospel, have they not? .

Some might view salvation as something akin to what one politician reportedly said, “We gotta pass this bill, so we can read it to see what it says.”

 

[ForestGreenCook]

A "newborn babe in Christ" has already accepted the gospel, have they not? .

No, I do not believe that holds true to scripture. The newborn babe in Christ has to mature enough to come unto a knowledge of the truth. Some mature faster than others. Romans 10:1-3 is an example of this.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

 

[Magenta]

No, I do not believe that holds true to scripture. The newborn babe in Christ has to mature enough to come
unto a knowledge of the truth. Some mature faster than others. Romans 10:1-3 is an example of this.

How can it be an example of saved people when those being referred to are not yet saved, and seek to
establish their own righteousness rather than subjecting themselves to the righteousness of God ?

 

[Mem]

If you think that you have no need to be refreshed in the gospel, then you must be of all people most miserable. Pride comes before the fall.

If my God looked like John Calvin, yes, I would be the most miserable of all.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How can it be an example of saved people when those being referred to are not yet saved, and seek to
establish their own righteousness rather than subjecting themselves to the righteousness of God ?

Look at how many on this forum are teaching eternal salvation (deliverance) is accomplished by their good works, which is holding to the old law of Moses. Most likely, they are all born again children of God.

Rom 10::2 - If a person has a "zeal (embracing, pursuing, defending) of God", is evidence that they are a born again child of God.

The word "saved" in Romans 19:1, is translated in Greek to mean "delivered". in this case, to be delivered from being ignorant of God's righteousness.

This is why, the believers of eternal deliverance by works, are so confused, because the scriptures do teach that there is a salvation (deliverance) that is accomplished by the good works of the born again person, but that deliverance is experienced here in this world, not eternally.

This is where Matt 7:13-14 & Ezek 10 comes into play.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If my God looked like John Calvin, yes, I would be the most miserable of all.

That is not worth my reply comment.