Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

[soberxp]

The milk and honey of the Promised Land refers to the Gospel, so even if the Jews return to that land, or return to the kingdom, if they don't have the Gospel, it's just paranoid or obsession.

But God made the promise unilaterally, so there is the Gospel of the Gentiles, which is a promise to Israel.

God's word is a sword with two blades, and Israel saw it only one side.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

until then we gonna have to hear about "this generation" being the generation that saw israel become a state, its been 75 years now (even though biblically a generation is usually 40, thats why the book 88 reasons Jesus returns in 1988) and they will keep pushing this until 120 years.

In Luke 21:32, "this generation" cannot possibly be meaning such... where Jesus states (v.32), "this generation shall not pass away till all shall have taken place"... and that "ALL" in v.32 must necessarily include everything that v.24 had already just spoken of (including "...and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN [see Rev11:2] OF the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled"--a very "of-lengthy-duration" spans of time, ending only at Christ's Second Coming to the earth; for, the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to Gentile domination over Israel, which started in 606/5bc, think: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold" [but the "[10] toes" part are yet to occur, future to us]--and which phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" is distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentile be come in [G1525]"... carrying distinct meanings.)




So, in view of Lk21:32's "this generation shall not pass away TILL ALL shall have taken place" (INCLUDING v.24's own "UNTIL" matter), consider William Kelly's commentary on this passage:

[quoting Wm Kelly]

"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken, but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new generation, the generation to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."

[end quoting from Wm Kelly's Commentary on Lk21:32 and context]







[then there's the SEQUENCE ISSUES of the Olivet Discourse to be taken into consideration... which I've posted about in past posts / threads]

 

[Melach]

God is going to ask why?

I would not like to be in the shoes of one of whom He asks it

God makes plain what punishment would befall Israel for not recognizing the Messiah and let's be honest, let's call it for what it is, sin. The Light came but men preferred darkness to the Light because their deeds were evil. We deny nothing the scriptures teach about Israel's failure.

Their punishment had been spelled out by every prophet from Moses onwards, God would drive them out of their land to become wanderers in the earth.

But God said nothing about them being hounded and brutalized and murdered by those nations. Poked off into cattle wagons at gunpoint to be gassed. God said nothing about that.

God's plan was that they should go to every nation where the gospel was to be preached and when they witnessed the grace and fruits of God's word among those nations they should be made to recognize their God and turn and be saved. THAT was God's great plan.

Instead what they witnessed was the corruption that was the Roman Catholic Church. And Replacement Theology is their crooked doctrine. The doctrine of the manifest Kingdom of God on earth i.e. the 1, 000 year reign of Christ was abandoned by the RCC and replaced by Amillennialism of which Replacement is part. ... It survived the Reformation because Luther was steeped in it through his catholicism.

Now I tell you God has got a quarrel with the nations because of how they have treated His ancient people, the seed of Abraham to whom many promises remain unfulfilled. God is going to bring those nations up against Israel and against Jerusalem and He's going to slay them. You can read it in Ezekiel 37-38.

you conveniently left out that God is gonna kill 2/3rds of Israel as well lol. oh well. if you honestly believe jews are just aimlessly wandering around the earth you are absolutely ignorant of reality. jews are some of the most succesful and rich people in the world today and got their hands in nearly everything (good and bad) on a global scale.

 

[Melach]

Oh yes, I'm a racist as well as an anti-semite. I can have a laugh over that!

i lose all respect for people who use those words as well. they are used so much in our society today its like we are having some loser's victim olympics and we are battling who is the biggest victim. im placing my money on the black/gay/muslim/nonbinary/trans guy. now thats a victim right there.

 

[Komentaja]

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsiyyonut [tsijoˈnut] after Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that espouses the establishment of, and support for a homeland for the Jewish people centered in the area roughly corresponding to what is known in Jewish tradition as the Land of Israel, which corresponds in other terms to the region of Palestine, Canaan, or the Holy Land, on the basis of a long Jewish connection and attachment to that land¨

If that is the definition of zionism you are using here, then count me in. I believe every ethnic group should have their own country that they can govern.

As to what others have pointed out in the thread as a point of concern, I in no longer view the Jews as superior to myself or anyone else, we all have to be in Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul doesn't say exactly when Israel will be restored in relation to the second coming.

Actually Paul does say so.

ROMANS 11: THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL AFTER THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

"The Deliverer" is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, and "Sion" is Jerusalem on earth. The Bible tells us that when Christ comes the second time, He will stand on the Mount of Olives (which is just outside Jerusalem) and it will split into two. Of course there is much more to this prophecy, since Christ will send His angels to gather the Jews from around the world to Jerusalem, where a portion of them they will repent, and mourn, and weep, and receive Him as their Savior and Deliverer. Paul mentions "the election" above, and Matthew 24 speaks of the angels gathering "the elect". We do not have the full picture but this should give us food for thought.

The amazing thing is that even though Israel have generally been in rebellion against God, and even though the majority rejected Christ, God has not backed away from His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ("the fathers" or patriarchs mentioned above). We know that God told Moses He would wipe them out completely, but Moses pleaded for Israel. Moses even lost his opportunity to enter the Promised Land because of their rebellion.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsiyyonut [tsijoˈnut] after Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that espouses the establishment of, and support for a homeland for the Jewish people...

True. But it was purely political, involved violence against Arabs, and originated with mostly non-ethnic Jews from Europe and Russia, who had originated in the kingdom of Khazaria. Hence they were called "Khazars". These are the Ashkenazim. The Sephardim (a minority) were the actual ethnic Jews descended from the twelve tribes. Zionism rejected the Orthodox Jewish position of an expectation of the Messiah, and Orthodox Jews do not necessarily support secular Zionism.

 

[Komentaja]

True. But it was purely political, involved violence against Arabs, and originated with mostly non-ethnic Jews from Europe and Russia, who had originated in the kingdom of Khazaria. Hence they were called "Khazars". These are the Ashkenazim. The Sephardim (a minority) were the actual ethnic Jews descended from the twelve tribes. Zionism rejected the Orthodox Jewish position of an expectation of the Messiah, and Orthodox Jews do not necessarily support secular Zionism.

I did not know that. So would you say Ashkenazi jews are the synagogue of satan then? Those who claim to be Jews but are not? If you think about how middle-eastern people would look, sephardic jew or mizrachi jew would come to mind over a redheaded ashkenazi.

Im interested because I have some ashkenazi jew DNA allegedly [assuming the DNA tests they sell us are reliable]. Granted, I was never circumcised nor did I do a bar mitzvah or anything, I had a regular secular upbringing with Santa Claus and easter bunny, the whole shabang.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

you conveniently left out that God is gonna kill 2/3rds of Israel as well lol. oh well. if you honestly believe jews are just aimlessly wandering around the earth you are absolutely ignorant of reality.

Yeah, but you can also say God protected 1/3 of Israel.

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

To be fair, after the last days are over, more than half or about 2/3rd of the world population will have died too. So... I think we should focus more on spreading the gospel and discipling the people accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

jews are some of the most succesful and rich people in the world today and got their hands in nearly everything (good and bad) on a global scale.

It just sounds like you're jealous though. You have to admit that they are an extremely intelligent and highly productive people.

Instead of envying them, concentrate on your own personal efforts to contribute positively to society.

-=<>=-

I myself choose to support Israel because:

The hatred toward Israel isn't so much about them as it is because God is a promise keeper. God has made so many promises to Israel - and Satan has been trying to make God break them since the first promise. Why would Satan even try? Because if he can get God to break a promise, it would show God is not worthy of our faith, hope and trust. So I'm basically rooting for God to keep His promises to Israel - and to us too!

One of the Lord's promises to Israel:

Amos 9:14-15 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God.

Even before all this, Satan tried to kill off all the Jews in the Holocaust so that there wouldn't be a people to bring back to their land. God proved Satan unsuccessful though and He brought a remnant to Israel which became a nation in one day. Promise kept!

So now that Satan was unsuccessful getting rid of God's people from existing and returning to Israel, he is now trying to get rid of them from their land to try to get to God to break His promise that "...they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them...”

Part of Satan's plan to wipe out Israel is to take away as much support for Israel as he can. One of the staunchest support of Israel is from Evangelicals. So right now he's trying to discourage that through various means, including this thread on this forum.

But the Bible says:

Romans 15:27 For they were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to be of service to them in material blessings.

🍿 So pop some popcorn 🍿 and keep watch of events regarding nations trying to wipe out Israel. God said He won't let any nation do that ever again. It will be interesting to watch....

 

[Evmur]

you conveniently left out that God is gonna kill 2/3rds of Israel as well lol. oh well. if you honestly believe jews are just aimlessly wandering around the earth you are absolutely ignorant of reality. jews are some of the most succesful and rich people in the world today and got their hands in nearly everything (good and bad) on a global scale.

There are two sets of prophecies concerning Israel in all the prophets, one set concerns the fall of Israel and usually take up the earlier portion of each prophecy. The second set concerns the RISE of Israel and their reconciliation and usually take up the latter portions of each prophecy.

You are quoting the fall of Israel which we do not deny, we quote the rise of Israel which you do deny.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

They rejected Him. And they paid for their rejection.

But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Yes, but we can all agree that Romans 11 says Jews are blinded for a time. There will be a time when they will recognize their Messiah and morn for Him. They will realize their wrong. There are promises yet to be fulfilled according to the Bible.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Jesus also foretold of the destruction and diaspora of the Jews from Israel. Not only did they fail to recognize His coming, they crucified Him in the cruelest of fashions:

Luke 19:43-44 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

But Romans 11 says they are blinded for a time. That time is until the Gentiles come in. God has not abandoned his chosen people.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, but we can all agree that Romans 11 says Jews are blinded for a time. There will be a time when they will recognize their Messiah and morn for Him. They will realize their wrong. There are promises yet to be fulfilled according to the Bible.

This pertains to the contemporaries of Jesus time during the transition years up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

it really is sickening to see people glorify the Christ rejecting jews (and "messianic jews") and listen to them as if they got some hidden esoteric wisdom. i remember seeing them fly out the israeli flag with the occult star of david (star of remphan the bible calls it) and singing hatikva when some israeli guy came in and they were bowing down to him. no backbone like hamburger hagee.

Israel is the apple of God's eye, the Jews are still the chosen people. I would be careful of what I said against the Jews. Blessings and cursings, that has not changed. The Jews have been blinded for a time. But they will come to believe in their Messiah, and they will grieve. YOU and I are as guilty of Christs death. Our sins held Him to that cross. Romans says that we should not be arrogant, that we are grafted in and can just as easily be removed. God still loves and is still calling to the Jews. And before you start up, no, they won't be saved another way.

unfortunately we will be stuck with this israel gimmick until the arabs outbreed them and vote in their own guys to the "knesset" or violently take over the state.

Now that entire comment is pure racism. That attitude is what caused the Holocaust. It shouldn't be allowed to stay on a Christian forum. It's pure hate.

until then we gonna have to hear about "this generation" being the generation that saw israel become a state, its been 75 years now (even though biblically a generation is usually 40, thats why the book 88 reasons Jesus returns in 1988) and they will keep pushing this until 120 years.

Keep pushing what the Bible says, you better believe it. But you need to repent of that bitter hatred in your heart. It stinks before God.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

look. the jews have been persecuted by christian and non-christian alike. they have been expelled from every single country they have ever set foot in...... if you have been kicked out of everywhere, maybe its time to take a good long look in the mirror and ask, "why?"

Because they are the chosen people, that is why. Are you reading your Bible upside down, or at all ?! Wow, the hatred is real with you. Stunning.

 

[montana123]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

God has not cast away His people that He once foreknew.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The Sun, moon, and stars are still shining so God's covenant with Israel is still in affect.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God is making a new covenant with Israel that is different than the covenant of possessing Canaan, and God will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sin no more, which means they will always be in truth from that time forward.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God is going to bring the whole house of Jacob, all 12 tribes, back to Israel, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they will know the LORD their God, and He will never hide His face from them again which means they will always be in the truth from that time forward.

When the New Age Christ establishes peace in the Middle East it will pave the way for all Jews to go back to Israel for the Gentile nations will cause it to happen, and the nations will come together as one.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, and so all Israel shall be saved, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance which He called Israel so He will always restore Israel and with the new covenant.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

All Gentile governments will not operate and Israel will be the only operating kingdom on Earth.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

When a Gentile is saved they become a Jew inwardly, and are part of the commonwealth of Israel.

The Church does not replace Israel but Israel is the Church.

It is Israel all the way, and God did not cast away His people, and they will never cease to be a nation, and He will restore the kingdom on Earth to the Jews.

The names of the 12 tribes of Israel, and the 12 apostles, are written in the New Jerusalem because it is Israel all the way from Abraham to the New Jerusalem.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Depends upon who Jesus was referring to. Also, nothing was going to keep God from pouring out His wrath on Israel in the near future. Their children would be there to experience that wrath.

But they will be restored.

 

[Evmur]

I find it amazing how that so many Zionists can get more worked up over eschatology than then do over doctrines of salvation. LOL

Through the history of the church, there have been good men of God who have held to a-mil, or post-mil or pre-mil views; BUT NOT ZIONSIM OR DISPENSATIONALISM which cropped up in the latter 1800s along with other cults.

I do not see the differences between the three historic views of the church as affecting salvation or Christian fellowship. But, I find Zionism and Dispensationalism to be Jewish heresy. The horrible idea of going back under the Old Covenant after Jesus Christ has fulfilled it, is repugnant. The idea that you can literalize Ezekiel as Dispensationalists do is ridiculous. Try literalizing Ezekiel chapter one and you may end up with aliens visiting earth in the past. Don't laugh, some have seen that there!

I don't argue about it, but I personally lean to a form of postmillennialism that is similar to the spiritual reign of Christ as taught by John Gill in his Body of Divinity -
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk5-ch14.html

The Bible must not be so very clear on eschatology or there would not be the three main views held by good men in the church down through history. BUT, Zionism, Dispensationalism, is a Judaizing heresy!! Like the cults believe, they are the truly informed ones, the church through history has just been misled by false teachers. I know of which I speak, I was once a devout Dispensationalist who thought myself fortunate enough to be among those to whom knowledge was increased, Dan. 12:4.

I at that time was totally convinced by Bible footnotes and indoctrination; but thank God I was led to compare the notes to the Scriptures themselves and saw the false teaching.

Oh yes, I'm a racist as well as an anti-semite. I can have a laugh over that!

Stop kidding us YOU are a dispensationalist ... ALL Christians are dispensationalist.

You do not serve under the Mosaic dispensation do you? you are not under the law you are under grace. That is dispensationalism.

You are getting mixed up with HYPER dispensationalism or with Mid Acts Dispensationalism which is extreme.

Paul said "a dispensation has been given me to you-wards" [Gentiles] we pertain to that dispensation.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

im placing my money on the black/gay/muslim/nonbinary/trans guy. now thats a victim right there.

How is a gay or trans person a victim?! Non binary, what kind of are you talking about!? Jews had everything they owned taken from them, they were tossed into trains, taken to concentration camps and were murdered. They were innocent people!! They were gassed, tortured, experimented on, shot in mass graves. 6 million murdered in cold blood. Are you daft?!! Man you need to repent and be saved!! If you think the murder of an innocent person doesn't make them a victim but a man wearing a dress pretending to be a woman IS a victim, ya you need to hit the floor man and have a heart to heart with the Lord. That hate won't stand on the final day. smh Sickening.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

They possessed ALL the land as promised:

So talk to us about covenants. Which were conditional and which were not? Do you know? Apparently you don't.