Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[rogerg]

These folks closed their own eyes ... and God allows folks to turn from Him. However, in Matt 13:16, we see that God blesses those who do not close their eyes ... those who do not turn from Him.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Everyone unsaved remains blind until and unless God saves them and gives them eyes to see.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians

3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


2 Cor 3:12-14 – some folks (even those who are born again) read Scripture with a veil on their hearts ... the veil is removed in Christ. These verses describe the veil that is upon the hearts of those who do not comprehend that the old covenant is done away in Christ, as the Lord Jesus Christ established the new covenant.

2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart]

2 Cor 3:17-18 – those who turn their hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ are free to behold with open face [not veiled] the glory of the Lord and God works within to change [Greek metamorphoō] the believer.

2 Cor 4:1-2 – we all have a ministry ... which is to speak the gospel ... and because we have received mercy, we never tire in speaking the gospel. Additionally, we give up dishonest teachings [teachings that purport to be the Word of God but which are actually mens' wisdom] ... we do not walk in craftiness ... we do not handle the Word of God deceitfully.

2 Cor 4:3 – if our gospel is hid, it is hid to those who are lost ... those who have not turned their hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 4:4 – the word "blinded" is translated from the Greek word typhlóō which means blowing smoke which causes (spiritual) blindness, i.e. experiencing "clouded vision". satan, through his cunning craftiness, obscures the truth of Scripture through those who do not hold forth the Word of God, but speak their own wisdom ... or the wisdom of other men.

satan is happy so long as God's Word is replaced by wisdom of men because he can continue to blow smoke ... lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That is why it is imperative that we hold forth God's Word ... not man's wisdom.

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Everyone unsaved remains blind until and unless God saves them and gives them eyes to see.

16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Read the verse right before verse 16:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God did not close the eyes of those spoken of in Matt 13:15. According to the Author of Scripture, they closed their own eyes.

And in vs 16, the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to those who continued with Him after He spoke to great multitudes as He taught by the seaside (Matt 13:1-2).

Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!

Those who did not want to listen up! or pay attention! went their own way ... they rejected the invitation of the Lord Jesus Christ ... not (as you would have us believe) because God blinded them.

Some followed after Him and He answered their questions. Those are the ones He told blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears for they hear. However, they did not "see" ... nor did they "hear" ... until after Jesus explained to them, which means they were just as blind as the ones who went their own way.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[rogerg]

satan is happy so long as God's Word is replaced by wisdom of men because he can continue to blow smoke ... lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That is why it is imperative that we hold forth God's Word ... not man's wisdom.

Due to size limitations I had to reply in multiple posts.

Post 1

Generally speaking, I'm afraid that you do not realize what the verses you posted are really teaching - or of what you are affirming. You probably do so without even realizing it, that by your comments, in effect, you are deferring to trusting in the wisdom of man, not God's. When you state that it is implicitly or explicitly up to man and his wisdom to come to any spiritual revelation or awareness, you are reverting to the wisdom of man. Instead, God's wisdom come's only through becoming born again, upon which, is a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is given wisdom. The heart of man is blind and of itself, cannot turn to the Lord. Only God can cause that to happen. Look closely at 1 Co 2:12. It plainly tells us that only through the Spirit of God that we can know the things of God, but the Spirit of God is only given to those who become born-again. Until and unless that occurs, we remain blind. You can't have it both ways - that man, left to himself, can only have the wisdom of man and not the wisdom of God, but to have the wisdom of God, he must have God.

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

satan is happy so long as God's Word is replaced by wisdom of men because he can continue to blow smoke ... lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That is why it is imperative that we hold forth God's Word ... not man's wisdom.

That is my point, but you rest salvation and wisdom upon man's wisdom not God's - but it is not possible that man's wisdom can find out the things of God, it can only come from God to him as a gift. Man's wisdom is only capable of knowing the things of man.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[Eph 1:17 KJV] 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

2 Cor 3:12-14 – some folks (even those who are born again) read Scripture with a veil on their hearts ... the veil is removed in Christ. These verses describe the veil that is upon the hearts of those who do not comprehend that the old covenant is done away in Christ, as the Lord Jesus Christ established the new covenant.

As I said above, unless and until someone is indwelt by God, they will never be able to comprehend. A person who has been born-again cannot have a veil upon their heart. A veil upon the heart, while there, denies a person an understanding of the spiritual truth of Christ. This cannot be the case with someone born-again because they have the Holy Spirit within them.

2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart]

An unborn-again reader CANNOT turn themselves to Christ. God places within those He makes born-again a new mind and a new heart, by which, they are able to comprehend the spiritual. Before that, they are unable to do so. Notice below, that it is God alone who
gives a new heart, not man. That new heart is given by God to someone when they become born-again.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2 Cor 4:4 – the word "blinded" is translated from the Greek word typhlóō which means blowing smoke which causes (spiritual) blindness, i.e. experiencing "clouded vision". satan, through his cunning craftiness, obscures the truth of Scripture through those who do not hold forth the Word of God, but speak their own wisdom ... or the wisdom of other men.

Should we speak of the Word of God as being of anything besides Christ as the sole and complete Saviour in all ways, then we
are not speaking the true and correct Word of God. Christ alone must be its foundation in all of its forms.


Blinded:
typhloō (Key)

1. to blind, make blind
2. in the NT metaph. to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

You state it correctly with the above verses, but they are contrary to the predicate you've established in your prior comments. In them you state that spiritual knowledge and salvation comes through man's ability, however, the above verses state otherwise - that it is only by "the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us". That it is only by the excellency of the power of God, is, in a nutshell, my entire point.

 

[rogerg]

Read the verse right before verse 16:


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Post 2

You need to go further back in the chapter than verse 15 to establish context. Look at verse 11. In it, we are told that they
were "given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven"; that is, it was not of themselves, but it was as a gift - to the others
it was "not given" and so they could not know.
Because those of verse 15 were not those to whom it was given, they, as with all of the unsaved, will be "dull of hearing"
and have "their eyes they have closed". Therefore, they will not be able to comprehend the meaning of the parables until and unless they are those whom God had chosen to make reborn.

[Mat 13:11-16 KJV]
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Eph 1:18 KJV] 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have
closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


God did not close the eyes of those spoken of in Matt 13:15. According to the Author of Scripture, they closed their own eyes.

No, God did not close their eyes, Satan, the god of this world did. Nevertheless, in order to have them opened, they had to be blessed by God for such. That blessing could not come from themselves to themselves, but only from God. And that blessing came to them WHILE their eyes were closed and their ears deaf.

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!

No, that is not what was meant. What was meant was that not everyone has spiritual ears to hear. They had already heard with human ears, but human hearing did not profit them, nor could it. If what you're saying were true, then by Christ telling them that,
they should have then been able to hear, but they didn't nor could they.

Some followed after Him and He answered their questions. Those are the ones He told blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears for they hear. However, they did not "see" ... nor did they "hear" ... until after Jesus explained to them, which means they were just as blind as the ones who went their own way.

Those who understood, understood, because it was given them to - because they were of the born again. Their understanding was not of man's natural ability to understand.

[Mat 13:11 KJV] 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

I would like to say to you "UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL" but to do so is not within yours or anyone's power but God's alone.


[1Co 1:4-5 KJV]
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;

 

[Evmur]

Light by it's very being repels darkness
The cross is repugnant to those who are perishing

... the mistake is in supposing that God ever desired it to be so.

Wheat is not tares
wolves are not sheeps
snakes are not doves

The "freewillerites" need to learn this. Preach the gospel to every creature, you'll discover who are who. But remember Paul who must have heard Stephen preach and saw the miracles God did through his hands but gnashed with his teeth upon him.

... yet Stephens words goaded Saul of Tarsus.

Never give up hope for anyone.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When you state that it is implicitly or explicitly up to man and his wisdom to come to any spiritual revelation or awareness

I did not state what you claim.

Here is what I said in Post 522:

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​

​

2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart]​

In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephó which means to turn. The verb is active, which means the person turns. If the verb was passive, that would mean the person was turned.

The veil being removed ... taken away is passive, which means that the person does not remove the veil. The veil is removed from him or her.

The person does the turning, the Lord removes the veil.

Look closely at 1 Co 2:12.

We were discussing what is written in 2 Cor 3-4.

You were the one who brought up 2 Cor 4:4 in your Post 521.

I submitted my understanding of 2 Cor 4:4 based on the context within which the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture.

Instead of responding to what I submitted, you jump from 2 Cor 3-4 to 1 Cor 2 ... then Jer 17:9.

Why can't you read verses within the context in order to come to proper understanding of what God wants you to know?

satan is happy so long as God's Word is replaced by wisdom of men because he can continue to blow smoke ... lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That is my point, but you rest salvation and wisdom upon man's wisdom not God's

since when is reading a verse within the context resting "salvation and wisdom upon man's wisdom not God's" ???

2 Cor 3:12-14 – some folks (even those who are born again) read Scripture with a veil on their hearts ... the veil is removed in Christ. These verses describe the veil that is upon the hearts of those who do not comprehend that the old covenant is done away in Christ, as the Lord Jesus Christ established the new covenant.

As I said above, unless and until someone is indwelt by God, they will never be able to comprehend. A person who has been born-again cannot have a veil upon their heart. A veil upon the heart, while there, denies a person an understanding of the spiritual truth of Christ. This cannot be the case with someone born-again because they have the Holy Spirit within them.

A born again one can have a veil upon the heart if he or she is taught by someone who does not rightly divide the Word of God (2 Tim 2:15). God warns us over and over about false teachers ... why do you think He does that, rogerg?

If/when the born again one believes the erroneous dogma of a false teacher, the born again one will have a veil upon his or her heart until he or she turns to the Lord Jesus Christ, at which point the veil is removed.

2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart

An unborn-again reader CANNOT turn themselves to Christ.

Look at the verb tense yourself, rogerg. In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephō, which means to turn. Also, please note the verb is active which means the reader turns. If the verb was passive, it would mean what you claim ... that the reader "CANNOT turn themselves to Christ".

You state it correctly with the above verses, but they are contrary to the predicate you've established in your prior comments. In them you state that spiritual knowledge and salvation comes through man's ability

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated that "spiritual knowledge and salvation comes through man's ability".
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Read the verse right before verse 16:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God did not close the eyes of those spoken of in Matt 13:15. According to the Author of Scripture, they closed their own eyes.

You need to go further back in the chapter than verse 15 to establish context.

If you read the full post I submitted, you would see that I went back further than vs 11:

"And in vs 16, the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to those who continued with Him after He spoke to great multitudes as He taught by the seaside (Matt 13:1-2).​

​

Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).​

​

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!"​

Because those of verse 15 were not those to whom it was given, they, as with all of the unsaved, will be "dull of hearing" and have "their eyes they have closed".

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

rogerg says (bold mine):

"all of the unsaved, will be "dull of hearing" and have "their eyes they have closed"​

You added the word "have" before "their eyes they have closed" as if those the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of did not close their own eyes.

I showed you that in vs 9 when the Lord Jesus Christ said who hath ears to hear, let him hear which means "listen up! pay attention!". Those who did not listen up and/or pay attention were those who went their own way after the Lord Jesus Christ was finished teaching. If they would have continued with Him, He would have explained the parables to them as well. However, they rejected His invitation and so they closed their own eyes and were unable to hear the explanation He gave to those who did not leave ... those who stayed to further hear what Jesus had to say after He told them to listen up! pay attention!

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God did not close the eyes of those spoken of in Matt 13:15. According to the Author of Scripture, they closed their own eyes.

No, God did not close their eyes, Satan, the god of this world did.

read the verse again, rogerg. God tells us in Matt 13:15 and their eyes they have closed.

Do not conflate what is written in Matt 13:15 with what is written in 2 Cor 4:4.

Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!

No, that is not what was meant.

Barne's Notes on the Bible

Who hath ears ... - This is a proverbial expression, implying that it was every man's duty to pay attention to what was spoken​

Meyer's NT Commentary

A request to give due attention to this important statement in Matthew 11:14. Comp. Matthew 13:9; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8; Ezekiel 3:27​

Bengel's Gnomen

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear was a form of commanding attention peculiar to our Lord​

.

 

[rogerg]

I did not state what you claim.

Here is what I said in Post 522:

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart]
In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephó which means to turn. The verb is active, which means the person turns. If the verb was passive, that would mean the person was turned.

The veil being removed ... taken away is passive, which means that the person does not remove the veil. The veil is removed from him or her.

The person does the turning, the Lord removes the veil.

Not possible. How can/why would someone turn while the veil remained on their heart? They would have no desire,
knowledge, nor motivation to turn because their blind trust in their old non-Christ centered belief would remain exclusive and
would dominate them. The veil would first have to be first be lifted in order for them to desire to turn - which they then will do. For
that change to transpire requires that something external to themselves, change them.

We were discussing what is written in 2 Cor 3-4.

You were the one who brought up 2 Cor 4:4 in your Post 521.

I submitted my understanding of 2 Cor 4:4 based on the context within which the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture.

Instead of responding to what I submitted, you jump from 2 Cor 3-4 to 1 Cor 2 ... then Jer 17:9.

Why can't you read verses within the context in order to come to proper understanding of what God wants you to know?

The answer is that the Bible instructs its readers that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation,
meaning that no verse should stand on its own but must be intersected with other pertinent verses throughout the whole Bible (not just with the sequence of the verses within that chapter) to come to a correct understanding. By believing that God's intent can be ascertained solely in "the context within which the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture" as you say, violates scriptural admonition, because we have been informed otherwise. In ignoring it, you are led into incorrect biblical interpretations. The other verses that I provided - those that you are complaining about - are actually a reasonable attempt to satisfy that requirement.

[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

since when is reading a verse within the context resting "salvation and wisdom upon man's wisdom not God's" ???

Because you believe that spiritual understanding can come through natural man's unborn-again intellect, which, per the verses I provided, it cannot. One must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit to gain spiritual understanding because it is by Him that one becomes spiritually unblinded.
And also, because no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Look at the verb tense yourself, rogerg. In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephō, which means to turn. Also, please note the verb is active which means the reader turns. If the verb was passive, it would mean what you claim ... that the reader "CANNOT turn themselves to Christ".

I covered this previously in this post. But to answer your question now, your perception of the "shall turn", it is focused solely upon result, but not its cause. You incorrectly assume cause and result as being one in the same when they are not.

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated that "spiritual knowledge and salvation comes through man's ability".

Because you state it by saying that natural man, of himself, can come to/discern spiritual truth. That is the essence of your point
about natural man being able to first turn to Christ of themselves so that the veil of the hearts will become lifted when it cannot be.
Instead, it can only occur as a result of becoming born-again though the will of God.

I'll reply to your second post later.

 

[Blade]

"1 Cor 2:14 is proof that one needs to be regenerated (born again) to hear the gospel is improper interpretation of the verse. "

Seems clear to me Paul is comparing the natural man and the spiritual man. The distinction is both absolute and general. Seems Paul suggests man calls the gospel nonsense because he has not received the spirit to enlighten him and he can not by reasoning discover these things. They must be revealed. As one says a deaf man cannot accurately judge music and a blind man cannot accurately judge the landscape. The natural man cannot receive or discern or judge spiritual things blah blah blah

Maybe define gospel. So yes one needs to be born again to understand spiritual things. The natural man can understand Christ coming in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and they need to believe in Him to have ever lasting life. The only way Paul could lol see is he had to be born again. One can say Israel is still blind. So all this to say I agree

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 3:13-15~ We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites
from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading
of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil
covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[rogerg]

If you read the full post I submitted, you would see that I went back further than vs 11:

"And in vs 16, the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to those who continued with Him after He spoke to great multitudes as He taught by the seaside (Matt 13:1-2).Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!"

To have ears to hear spiritually is not something that a person can give to themselves, just as it is not possible for a person to
give to themselves human ears and hearing. The "he who has ears to hear" does not mean that everyone is born with spiritual hearing but that they just haven't chosen to utilize it correctly. If it was Jesus's intention to communicate that, He would have phrased it differently, because otherwise, His statement would be logically incorrect, which we know could not be possible.

You added the word "have" before "their eyes they have closed" as if those the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of did not close their own eyes.

I showed you that in vs 9 when the Lord Jesus Christ said who hath ears to hear, let him hear which means "listen up! pay attention!". Those who did not listen up and/or pay attention were those who went their own way after the Lord Jesus Christ was finished teaching. If they would have continued with Him, He would have explained the parables to them as well. However, they rejected His invitation and so they closed their own eyes and were unable to hear the explanation He gave to those who did not leave ... those who stayed to further hear what Jesus had to say after He told them to listen up! pay attention!

No, you did not show that - you may think you did, but you didn't. "listen up pay attention" is not what was intended. By a veil being upon their hearts to be able to listen up or pay attention. would not be possible for them And Jesus would only have explained it (with explaining it and not to be confused with His declaring it) to those to whom it was "given" - but not to everyone. Think about it this way, if someone other than Jesus had tried explaining it exactly the same way as Jesus did but to those to whom it was not given, would they have comprehended (with comprehending to include believing)? NO, they would not have comprehended no matter how many times they heard it, nor even with being told it in many different ways. Why? Because it was not intended by God that it be given to them.
Now, this doesn't mean that everyone to whom it is given hears everything perfectly immediately, but that over time they will continue to grow in their hearing. On the other hand, those to whom it is not given will never comprehend.
So, there are two kinds of hearing mentioned in the Bible: the human hearing of natural man which all are born with to hear physically yet does not lead to spiritual understanding nor wisdom; and spiritual hearing from becoming born-again, given only to those to whom it was intended which brings forth the fruit of both spiritual understanding and wisdom.

[Act 28:26 KJV]
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Jhn 8:42-43 KJV]
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Jhn 10:3 KJV]
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

[Jhn 10:8, 16 KJV]
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. ...
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

read the verse again, rogerg. God tells us in Matt 13:15 and their eyes they have closed.

Do not conflate what is written in Matt 13:15 with what is written in 2 Cor 4:4.

They should be conflated per the biblical admonition that no verse be understood standalone.

Barne's Notes on the Bible

Who hath ears ... - This is a proverbial expression, implying that it was every man's duty to pay attention to what was spoken

Meyer's NT Commentary

A request to give due attention to this important statement in Matthew 11:14. Comp. Matthew 13:9; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8; Ezekiel 3:27

Bengel's Gnomen

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear was a form of commanding attention peculiar to our Lord

Think about it - "he who has ear to hear: DOES NOT say "listen up". It says quite clearly that some can hear spiritually, and some cannot.

And I am not, nor will I ever be persuaded or swayed by commentary. Why? Because using it would place me in direct violation of 2 Tim 3:16, 17.

Instead for me, commentary only introduces a level of unnecessary obfuscation and of possible error. Now, I don't criticize anyone who chooses to use it, but for me, it is unnecessary.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You added the word "have" before "their eyes they have closed" as if those the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of did not close their own eyes.

They didn't, Satan caused the eyes of the unsaved to be closed. However, upon becoming born-again God opens them.

A born again one can have a veil upon the heart if he or she is taught by someone who does not rightly divide the Word of God (2 Tim 2:15). God warns us over and over about false teachers ... why do you think He does that, rogerg?

If/when the born again one believes the erroneous dogma of a false teacher, the born again one will have a veil upon his or her heart until he or she turns to the Lord Jesus Christ, at which point the veil is removed.

(Above from your first post - I missed it)

You paint with far too broad a brush. No one born-again understands nor lives all doctrine perfectly - it is a continual process. However, that they remain saved is beyond dispute because their salvation was not by anything they did, nor of anything they might do, they are saved by God's choice to have saved them and of Christ's offering alone to achieve it. The veil upon the heart is a reference to their trust in law and not in grace from Christ as Saviour. No matter what doctrine someone might have wrong, for those saved, their trust in Christ will never change. That trust is a byproduct of their salvation, it is not its cause and is protected by God Himself.

And as with all instruction which is given to the saved, they are being edified. If a veil is upon their hearts as you say, then it would be because it had never been removed in the first place.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

How can/why would someone turn while the veil remained on their heart?

You do know that Scripture is God's Word (all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness – 2 Tim 3:16), yes?

And that Scripture is one of the means in which God reaches out to mankind ... and that is God "making the first move" so to speak as far as "calling" out to the lost and the sinners ... you do know this, yes?

And that God's Word is quick [lifegiving] and powerful ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit ... and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart, yes?

God would not tell us to do something we cannot do ... and He specifically tells us to turn.

You do not need to understand how God does what He does ... you just need to believe what God says ... do as He instructs ... and have faith that God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all we could ever ask or think.

Quit arguing with God and do as He instructs. Turn your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ and see Him in every book of the Bible ... from Genesis to Revelation ... and then see how much of God's Word opens up to you as you read with purpose and with unveiled heart. So then, faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God – Rom 10:17).

The veil would first have to be first be lifted in order for them to desire to turn

Read the verses again, rogerg. I didn't write the Book and you appear to be rewriting it in order to fit a preconceived notion you have come up with:

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader/hearer] shall turn [verb, active] to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away [verb, passive].

For
that change to transpire requires that something external to themselves, change them.

Scripture is the "something external to themselves". And Scripture is God making the first move in reaching out to mankind.

Again, you do realize that Scripture is God's Word and God's Word is powerful and when God's Word tells us to do something, then we are to do it ... or reap the consequences of not doing what God instructs, yes?

I submitted my understanding of 2 Cor 4:4 based on the context within which the verse is placed by the Author of Scripture.

Instead of responding to what I submitted, you jump from 2 Cor 3-4 to 1 Cor 2 ... then Jer 17:9.

Why can't you read verses within the context in order to come to proper understanding of what God wants you to know?

the Bible instructs its readers that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation,
meaning that no verse should stand on its own but must be intersected with other pertinent verses throughout the whole Bible (not just with the sequence of the verses within that chapter) to come to a correct understanding.

You again rip a verse from its context and present an opinion that is not supported by Scripture:

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:20 relates to the Scripture writings.

The first thing we are to know about Scripture is that the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

God wrote Scripture and He used holy men to write it.

Read Jeremiah 36 for a full understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Having said that, we are to understand words within verses, verses within immediate context, immediate context within remote context, and all Scripture is to fit together with no contradictions.

If we think there is contradiction in Scripture, then we are to look to our own (mis)understanding of what is written.

We are to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily whether those things [the things Paul and Silas taught] were so – Acts 17:11.

since when is reading a verse within the context resting "salvation and wisdom upon man's wisdom not God's" ???

Because you believe that spiritual understanding can come through natural man's unborn-again intellect, which, per the verses I provided, it cannot. One must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit to gain spiritual understanding because it is by Him that one becomes spiritually unblinded.

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim.

I will not hold my breath because you will not provide such post because I never said what you imply.

That you walk away with an understanding that I ever said I "believe that spiritual understanding can come through natural man's unborn-again intellect" is you misinterpreting what I have submitted. You do the same with Scripture and your understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21 is a prime example.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 relates to the mystery, the hidden wisdom, as well as other spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel.

When you read the full chapter, you see that Paul refers to the gospel in vss 1-2.

Then, in vs 6, Paul begins to discuss deeper spiritual truths which he was able to share with more mature believers (the them that are perfect – meaning of full age – of 1 Cor 2:6). And this discussion of the deeper spiritual matters continues to the end of the chapter.

Then in 1 Cor 3:1, Paul again discusses those things which he could only speak to younger believers the babes in Christ who needed to be fed with milk and not with meat (1 Cor 3:1-2).

Look at the verb tense yourself, rogerg. In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephō, which means to turn. Also, please note the verb is active which means the reader turns. If the verb was passive, it would mean what you claim ... that the reader "CANNOT turn themselves to Christ".

I covered this previously in this post. But to answer your question now, your perception of the "shall turn", it is focused solely upon result, but not its cause. You incorrectly assume cause and result as being one in the same when they are not.

... you "incorrectly assume" that I "incorrectly assume" what I do not assume or believe.

God tells us in His Word what we are to do or what we are not to do.

When we read or hear God's Word, we either do as God tells us or we do not.

If we do what God tells us, we reap the benefit.

If we do not do what God tells us, we reap the consequence.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is the essence of your point
about natural man being able to first turn to Christ of themselves so that the veil of the hearts will become lifted when it cannot be.
Instead, it can only occur as a result of becoming born-again though the will of God.

No ... that is not "the essence of [my point]". That is your private interpretation of what you believe is "the essence of [my point] ".

My point is that God reaches out to mankind through Scripture (which is His Word – He is the Author).

So God initiates the contact.

People either turn to God or they turn away from God.

Romans 1 describes what occurs very well:

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein [in the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


vs 16 – the gospel is read by or preached to someone. He or she either believes or does not believe. If the person believes, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The gospel is the power of God ... and please note, the words "that believeth" are verb – active (which means the person does the believing).

vs 18 – for those who do not believe the gospel, it is because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain. And, again, the verb is active, which means the person suppresses/restrains.

God's Word does not say they reject because they can only turn to God "as a result of becoming born-again".

God's Word says they reject because they suppress, restrain the truth in unrighteousness when someone teaches them the gospel.

Romans 1:19 goes on to tell us that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Clearly God provides enough for them to have that which may be known of God is manifest in them and for God to shew it unto them.

And Romans 1:20 tells us God's eternal power and Godhead has been revealed ... that is why those who suppress and restrain the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you read the full post I submitted, you would see that I went back further than vs 11:

"And in vs 16, the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to those who continued with Him after He spoke to great multitudes as He taught by the seaside (Matt 13:1-2).​

​

Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).​

​

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!"​

To have ears to hear spiritually is not something that a person can give to themselves, just as it is not possible for a person to
give to themselves human ears and hearing.

I never said a person gives "ears to hear spiritually" to themselves. Why do you continuously bring up matters which are not at issue?

The "he who has ears to hear" does not mean that everyone is born with spiritual hearing but that they just haven't chosen to utilize it correctly.

Again, a statement never uttered by me, nor implied by me.

What I said was

Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).​

​

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!"​

and I provided several resources to support this understanding of who hath ears to hear, let him hear means listen up! pay attention!

I showed you that in vs 9 when the Lord Jesus Christ said who hath ears to hear, let him hear which means "listen up! pay attention!". Those who did not listen up and/or pay attention were those who went their own way after the Lord Jesus Christ was finished teaching. If they would have continued with Him, He would have explained the parables to them as well. However, they rejected His invitation and so they closed their own eyes and were unable to hear the explanation He gave to those who did not leave ... those who stayed to further hear what Jesus had to say after He told them to listen up! pay attention!

No, you did not show that - you may think you did, but you didn't.

do you even bother read the posts to which you reply?

I showed you what I said I showed you ... you just think I did not but I did.

You are either intentionally obtuse or you just do not pay attention to the posts to which you reply.


reneweddaybyday – Post 522 submitted Mar 18, 2023 at 11:36 AM

And in vs 16, the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to those who continued with Him after He spoke to great multitudes as He taught by the seaside (Matt 13:1-2).​

​

Jesus spake many things to them (vs 3) and when He was finished speaking, He told them who hath ears to hear, let him hear (vs 9).​

​

The meaning of who hath ears to hear, let him hear = listen up! pay attention!​

​

Those who did not want to listen up! or pay attention! went their own way ... they rejected the invitation of the Lord Jesus Christ ... not (as you would have us believe) because God blinded them.​

​

Some followed after Him and He answered their questions. Those are the ones He told blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears for they hear. However, they did not "see" ... nor did they "hear" ... until after Jesus explained to them, which means they were just as blind as the ones who went their own way.​

reneweddaybyday – Post 527 submitted Mar 18, 2023 at 10:03 PM

I showed you that in vs 9 when the Lord Jesus Christ said who hath ears to hear, let him hear which means "listen up! pay attention!". Those who did not listen up and/or pay attention were those who went their own way after the Lord Jesus Christ was finished teaching. If they would have continued with Him, He would have explained the parables to them as well. However, they rejected His invitation and so they closed their own eyes and were unable to hear the explanation He gave to those who did not leave ... those who stayed to further hear what Jesus had to say after He told them to listen up! pay attention!​

And Jesus would only have explained it (with explaining it and not to be confused with His declaring it) to those to whom it was "given" - but not to everyone.

Jesus explained the parables to those who stuck around.

In Matt 13:1-2, we see great multitudes were gathered together unto Him and of the great multitudes some stuck around to ask Him questions.

It was these folks to whom Jesus expounded more fully and explained the meaning. These were the ones who listened up! and paid attention! In answer to Jesus statement who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Those of the great multitude who wandered off and went their own way, they are the ones who closed their own eyes ... they did it to themselves.

[Act 28:26 KJV]
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

Spoken by Paul after Paul witnessed to the Jews at Rome. And read the next verse ...

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, the people closed their own eyes. They did it to themselves.

It was at this point that Paul declared:

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

A parallel passage to what is written in Matt 13. Luke's writing concerning what took place. Mark wrote about it as well.

[Jhn 8:42-43 KJV]
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

Read John 8:45:

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

They did not believe the truth when truth was spoken to them. When truth was spoken, they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

[Jhn 10:3 KJV]
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

...

[Jhn 10:8, 16 KJV]
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. ...
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Jesus spoke and some believed and some did not believe.

The ones who did not believe had every opportunity to believe. Jesus did not hide Himself ... He spoke openly ... in the temple ... in the towns and villages ... in the synagogues ...

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse as Romans 1 tells us.

For you to insist that folks had no opportunity to hear and reject or hear and believe is not Scriptural.

Those who hear and believe truth are the ones God works in to reveal more and more truth over the course of the life of the believer.

Those who reject God will be rejected by God come judgment day.

read the verse again, rogerg. God tells us in Matt 13:15 and their eyes they have closed.

Do not conflate what is written in Matt 13:15 with what is written in 2 Cor 4:4.

They should be conflated per the biblical admonition that no verse be understood standalone.

No, rogerg, they should not be conflated.

2 Cor 4:4 specifically states that the god of this world obscures the truth.

Matt 13:15 specifically states that people close their own eyes.

2 Cor 4:4 refers to satan.

Matt 13:15 refers to people closing their own eyes.

Do you think that an unbeliever is going to be able to stand before God come judgment day and tell God they should not be cast into the lake of fire because of something satan did? You are giving unbelievers an excuse and God tells us they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Think about it - "he who has ear to hear: DOES NOT say "listen up".

I told you my understanding and you reject. so be it.

It says quite clearly that some can hear spiritually, and some cannot.

If they could "hear spiritually" they would not have needed the Lord Jesus Christ to explain the meaning to them as shown later in Matt 13.

The ones who listened up! and paid attention! were just as ignorant of the meaning of the parables as the ones who left to go their own way.

You added the word "have" before "their eyes they have closed" as if those the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of did not close their own eyes.

They didn't, Satan caused the eyes of the unsaved to be closed. However, upon becoming born-again God opens them.

Matt 13:15 specifically states their eyes have they closed. There is no mention of satan having closed their eyes.

When you conflate what is written in Matt 13:15 with what is written in 2 Cor 4:4, you change the meaning in Matt from people closing their own eyes (as is stated) to satan closing their eyes.

In effect, you are giving people who close their own eyes an excuse. Those who close their own eyes are without excuse.

A born again one can have a veil upon the heart if he or she is taught by someone who does not rightly divide the Word of God (2 Tim 2:15). God warns us over and over about false teachers ... why do you think He does that, rogerg?

If/when the born again one believes the erroneous dogma of a false teacher, the born again one will have a veil upon his or her heart until he or she turns to the Lord Jesus Christ, at which point the veil is removed.

You paint with far too broad a brush. No one born-again understands nor lives all doctrine perfectly

I never said that ... I never implied that ... I believe born again believers can be taught inaccurate renderings in Scripture, which is why God warns us over and over that we need to be careful:


Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.


Galatians 2:3-4 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:


Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive


2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

God warns born again believers for a reason. Do not think that just because you're born again you cannot be hoodwinked by false teaching.

However, that they remain saved is beyond dispute

I believe that when a person is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). The seal is evidence of ownership. The born again one belongs to God and no one can remove the born again one from God.

The born again one can, however, be robbed of fellowship with the Father and with the Lord Jesus Christ if / when he or she is drawn away by his or her own lusts ... which can lead to undesirable consequences for the believer.

If a veil is upon their hearts as you say, then it would be because it had never been removed in the first place.

not true ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Subject of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. If/when we take the focus off of Him in reading Scripture, we will not fully understand or comprehend what is written.

When we keep the Lord Jesus Christ as the focus, we read Scripture with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord and we are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord – 2 Cor 3:18.
.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, it does. She is the Elect Bride of Christ.
Those under the blood of Jesus are corporately referred to as "The Elect".

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Peter is here addressing the Church, which is indeed predestined for Heaven. God foreknew who would choose to come in and abide.

God foreknew that none, no, not one would seek him (Psalms 53:2).

 

[rogerg]

You do know that Scripture is God's Word (all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness – 2 Tim 3:16), yes?

And that Scripture is one of the means in which God reaches out to mankind ... and that is God "making the first move" so to speak as far as "calling" out to the lost and the sinners ... you do know this, yes?

Reply split into 2 due to size limitation.

Post 1

Those spiritually dead cannot respond to a "first move" - to be able to do that, they must first be given spiritual life, and spiritual life comes with salvation. Therefore, in having already become saved, God's purpose in reaching out is to provide edification, not salvation.

"quickened": made alive.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Quit arguing with God and do as He instructs. Turn your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ and see Him in every book of the Bible ... from Genesis to Revelation ... and then see how much of God's Word opens up to you as you read with purpose and with unveiled heart. So then, faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God – Rom 10:17).

The arguing is yours and is because you do not understand/believe in grace as fundamental to, and a requirement of, the gospel, but instead is in your own works. If you don't read the Bible following its instruction, then you won't its truth.
The "hearing" of Rom 10:17, is spiritual hearing, not human hearing. It comes only in conjunction with being born-again, which comes from being saved - it is not of man's doing nor can be heard (comprehended) with man's ears.

[Jhn 8:43 KJV] 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

Read the verses again, rogerg. I didn't write the Book and you appear to be rewriting it in order to fit a preconceived notion you have come up with:

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader/hearer] shall turn [verb, active] to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away [verb, passive].

ONLY GOD CAN TURN THE HEART. I guess that I incorrectly assumed you would be able to project my intent from my post, but apparently, I was wrong. Look at the following verses. The heart of natural man as-is is impervious to the things of God: a fully corrupted heart (of which all of the unsaved have), cannot change itself. In a spiritual sense, the heart of unsaved man has nothing spiritually good within itself to change itself.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Psa 58:2-3 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

[Rom 2:5 KJV]
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Scripture is the "something external to themselves". And Scripture is God making the first move in reaching out to mankind.

No, God must cause them to change first. Until and unless He does so, the gospel will be lost on them. See 1 Co 2:14 - it cannot be made any clearer than does that verse. Why are you so unable to comprehend or accept it?

You again rip a verse from its context and present an opinion that is not supported by Scripture:

2 Peter 1:20 relates to the Scripture writings.

The first thing we are to know about Scripture is that the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Read Jeremiah 36 for a full understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Having said that, we are to understand words within verses, verses within immediate context, immediate context within remote context, and all Scripture is to fit together with no contradictions.

We are to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily whether those things [the things Paul and Silas taught] were so – Acts 17:11.

No, it is not to be read that way! For example, God created both OT AND a NT exactly because His revelations were not intended to be fully complete in any one verse or series of physically adjacent verses - His revelation was progressive throughout spanning the whole Bible, with all being necessary to gain true, correct, and complete understanding. Plus, it must be of God's will to give a particular person the Holy Spirit so they gain understanding and accompanying faith.
Yes, Scripture does not contradict itself but neither does a lack of contradiction mean the full revelation has been found using only isolated verses - but, to achieve that, an analysis of all like verses throughout the whole Bible is necessary.
God did move His prophets to write the Bible. The point, however, is not whether He moved them to write it, but in how He moved them to structure it. He did not move them so it be read as any other book - should someone approach it in that manner, it would be very difficult to find/understand its truth, and which would easily lead to its misinterpretation.
Read your last sentence again more closely. The Bereans searched "the Scriptures" - they searched all of the Scriptures - to find whether a doctrine is "so". They did not cease their search at individual verses, nor accept that as final a confirmation, but sought to validate against the WHOLE bible. The Bible was written to be read and understood only as being FULLY and COMPLETEY INTERGRATED and INTERRELATED.

For example, in the below, multiple verses were referenced by Christ to document and demonstrate to them whom He was.

[Jhn 5:39, 45-47 KJV]
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. ...
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[rogerg]

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim.


I will not hold my breath because you will not provide such post because I never said what you imply.

That you walk away with an understanding that I ever said I "believe that spiritual understanding can come through natural man's unborn-again intellect" is you misinterpreting what I have submitted. You do the same with Scripture and your understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21 is a prime example.

Post 2

All of your posts scream exactly that, don't they? Are you now saying that spiritual understanding comes through God's intervention which is given only to someone who has been born-again? If so, that would be a major departure from your prior position. There are only two possible options: 1) that man of himself can come to spiritual understanding or, 2) that it only comes by God. Up until now at least, your position has been "1"- that man is able to do so of himself, has it not? Did you not say that when someone turns to the Lord (of themselves), THEN the is veil removed from their heart - meaning that as a natural man they can of themselves turn, though they were of the unsaved? That sounds like a "1" to me. You can't have it both ways - has to be only one or the other.
You can easily let us all know the answer to your own question simply by replying with a "2"- no sense for you to keep it secret.

1 Corinthians 2:14 relates to the mystery, the hidden wisdom, as well as other spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel.

Then in 1 Cor 3:1, Paul again discusses those things which he could only speak to younger believers the babes in Christ who needed to be fed with milk and not with meat (1 Cor 3:1-2).

I've read the chapter many times and your interpretation of it is gobbledygook.
I cannot imagine how anyone could be more wrong about a verse than you were in your post above - your reply bears no semblance whatsoever to what was actually written therein or elsewhere in the Bible- you had to make it into a pretzel in order for it come out the way you wanted it to- it simply doesn't say what you've posted, and by so doing, you've added to what God had written. It is so ludicrous I'm not going to spend a lot of time and effort correcting you in detail except for the below. In them, we can see in 1 Co 2:14 (and in many like other like verses), that natural (unsaved) man of himself, cannot know the things of God - it is ANY of the things of God - they do NOT state, either explicitly or implicitly, that Paul was speaking about Christians new to the faith or of ancillary doctrines - and you should not have trivialized it into that - you were frivolous and careless with the Bible. No, the hidden wisdom is not of the "deeper" other things, but of God, Christ and His gospel themselves, as we are told below. Those are as deep as anything spiritual can be.

The "hidden wisdom":

[Col 1:2 KJV]
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Col 2:2-3 KJV]
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

If we do what God tells us, we reap the benefit.

If we do not do what God tells us, we reap the consequence.
.

And of himself, natural man is incapable of doing that.

I'll reply to your other posts as I can.

 

[oyster67]

God foreknew that none, no, not one would seek him (Psalms 53:2).

Matthew 7:7
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:”

We base Church doctrine on the new and better ways revealed in the NT.

But since you are trying to use a verse in Psalms to prop up your false doctrine, Let's take a look at it in its context...

Psalms 53:
1 (To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

There have been times when very few on Earth sought to follow the Lord, but men like Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

It is also true that all have sinned (that is what "none doeth good" means), but mercy and grace are free to whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[rogerg]

You do know that Scripture is God's Word (all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness – 2 Tim 3:16), yes?

And that Scripture is one of the means in which God reaches out to mankind ... and that is God "making the first move" so to speak as far as "calling" out to the lost and the sinners ... you do know this, yes?

And that God's Word is quick [lifegiving] and powerful ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit ... and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart, yes?

Yes, I know that ALL Scripture is from God - what do you mean by "one of the means"? What else is there? 2 Tim 3:16 only mentions itself, and nothing else.
And as I said in a prior post, and in using only scripture, a spiritually dead person is oblivious to, nor able to discern, spiritual truth - hence natural man's inability to comprehend it. In order to do so, God must first give spiritual life, but spiritual life comes from/with salvation because both go together. Had you examined all pertinent verses and not just those in immediate proximity, you probably would have seen that yourself.

By your statements, you make salvation, mercy, and grace prisoners to one's intellect, rather than one's intellect being prisoner to salvation, mercy, and grace, which is actually true and what is taught by the Bible.

So, if God uses the scripture to make the first move through one's intellectual abilities as you say, then what then happens to those who throughout their lives do not have access to scripture, or those who don't have the intellectual capability to comprehend its meaning and message? Do you think they are eternally lost because of that?

You infer and associate doctrines not demonstrated by the verses themselves, and therefore, they are of your own making and not of the Bible.