Salvation is for the Whole World

[Magenta]

As far back as my memory takes me, I have always believed that God is real, indicating that I was born again spiritually, but I was not converted to see and understand the truth of the harmonizing scriptures, until I was 62 years old.

I have found that most spiritual seeking people tend to think their conversion is their born again experience, which may be your experience.

The new birth, for me, came unrecognisable. The scriptures explains it as a gentle breeze that you don't know where it came, nor where it goes.

For me, my conversion came, as if it were a 4th of July fireworks, and I couldn't tell people what I had been shown fast enough.

Is the Scripture you refer to John 3:8?

The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where
it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Is that really describing the new birth? .. I could not say either, when exactly I was
born again, but I know when it was I realized I had finally stopped fighting against God.

But you have told me I was born again to experience certain things of God, even though I was
for years afterwards still a non-believer and devoid of faith in the shed righteous blood of Christ.

We were both latecomers .

 

[Mem]

Believer, look back through all thine experience, and think of the way whereby the Lord thy God has led thee in the wilderness, and how He hath fed and clothed thee every day-how He hath borne with thine ill manners-how He hath put up with all thy murmurings, and all thy longings after the flesh-pots of Egypt-how He has opened the rock to supply thee, and fed thee with manna that came down from heaven.

Think of how His grace has been sufficient for thee in all thy troubles-how His blood has been a pardon to thee in all thy sins-how His rod and His staff have comforted thee. When thou hast thus looked back upon the love of the Lord, then let faith survey His love in the future, for remember that Christ's covenant and blood have something more in them than the past. He who has loved thee and pardoned thee, shall never cease to love and pardon.

-Spurgeon

Ironically, Spurgeon is using examples of people that God swore would never enter His rest because of their unbelief?

 

[HeIsHere]

Your first statement in your last paragraph isn't true. It's what I mean by misconceptions. Neither man believed God was bound in any way other than by His immutable attributes.

Let's leave Calvinism out of it and just go with the doctrine of some on this discussion board.

I am talking in practical realities.

To many here, God selects, man cannot choose, yet we have a direct correlation between conversions and where the Gospel is preached in the real world.

Does that not tell us something about the ability of a person to respond to the Gospel message?

So we either have a situation where God is constrained in His selection process by where the Gospel is preached

OR

people are in REALITY are responding to the Gospel because they have the ability to believe and this happens in areas where the Gospel is being preached.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' Words in John 6:65

 

[Mem]

Let's leave Calvinism out of it

"You suffer that woman Jezebel," is poetic language that denotes a false doctrine that is capable of bearing many illigimate children... js

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No problem, ForestGreenCook. My understanding is that from/by being saved/born again in this life, we are completely and fully saved, but the actualization - the final realization of that salvation - when everyone is judged by God on the last day, we shall be held harmless due to having been saved in this life. No one will be held harmless unless they were saved. I didn't mean to imply there is a second salvation if that's how you took it, instead, it is just the final act of the one. Nevertheless, the Bible does refer to that final act as being saved in the day of the Lord. The point I was trying to make was that when the Bible refers to becoming "saved" as a result of "calling on the name of the Lord", instead of calling upon His by being saved, the "saved" in view is of the last day - otherwise, it would mean that in order to become saved one would first have to first call upon the name of the Lord( our work), which we know cannot be the case. In other words, once saved in this life, our salvation is a done deal, but nevertheless, we will all still have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and each accordingly found not guilty or guilty, with those saved to be found not guilty.
Whew, I didn't do a good job explaining this as it is a little complicated because the Bible used same word to mean different things, but hopefully, you'll be able to see it in the following verses. If not, I'll try to clarify.
How would you understand them?

[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[Rom 10:13 KJV] 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[2Co 5:10 KJV] 10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

[Rom 14:10 KJV]
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

[2Pe 2:9 KJV]
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

[2Pe 3:7 KJV]
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[1Jo 4:17 KJV]
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

I can understand why, well intended, children of God, can be persuaded to believe that their good works is the cause of their eternal salvation, because the scriptures do teach that there is a salvation (deliverance) that is depending upon the good works that the child of God receives here on earth.

Salvation, according to Strong's concordance means "a deliverance". We are delivered eternally one time only, but the child of God is delivered many times, by his good works, as he sojourns here on earth.

I believe the scriptures to teach that only the elect are judged, by God's chastening, as they live on earth, (whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth) and they will not taste of the second death, but will be told to enter into their eternal inheritance, but the non-elect will be judged, by their works, at the last day, and will experience the second death

Psalms 73 tells us that the non-elect, as they live here in this world, will not be "plagued" (divinely punished) [chastened] like the elect are .

 

[cv5]

Ironically, Spurgeon is using examples of people that God swore would never enter His rest because of their unbelief?

You are tragically mistaken. Gods people Israel WILL enter their land and rest in the millennium. This is inevitable according to prophecy.

They will enter yet future when they ask Him to return as their rightful Lord.

Hos 5:14
For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
Hos 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Zec 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isa 12:1
And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me.
Isa 12:4
And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Isa 25:9
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

But preaching will always be necessary because God has ordained that through the foolishness of preaching His salvation will be wrought.

If by salvation (deliverance), you are referring to eternal, then I disagree with you, but if you are referring to a delivery that the child of God receives as he sojourns here on earth, then I agree with you. Salvation, according to Strong's concordance means "a deliverance

The child of God is delivered many times, as he sojourns here in this world, by his good works, but is delivered, one time only, not by his works.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I did too!! But lately I've been wondering... (that's always a bad sign )

I'm going through an Ephesians teaching thing, and the guy pointed out that we are a tri-unity being - body, soul spirit- but that we are "dead" spiritually and go through life living according to the desires of the body (flesh) and soul (mind/emotions):

Eph. 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So, furthermore, he contends that the "prince of the power of the air" is also active in our lives... him being the dominant spiritual force in our lives? IDK

So, is that the spirituality that I was considering way back then?

I will answer that for you, but I want to see what Magenta's answer will be.

 

[Magenta]

I will answer that for you, but I want to see what Magenta's answer will be.

I wrote Ted privately to answer.

He has not posted since. He may be in shock .

 

[Cameron143]

Let's leave Calvinism out of it and just go with the doctrine of some on this discussion board.

I am talking in practical realities.

To many here, God selects, man cannot choose, yet we have a direct correlation between conversions and where the Gospel is preached in the real world.

Does that not tell us something about the ability of a person to respond to the Gospel message?

So we either have a situation where God is constrained in His selection process by where the Gospel is preached

OR

people are in REALITY are responding to the Gospel because they have the ability to believe and this happens in areas where the Gospel is being preached.

I believe your presuppositions are wrong. While both could be true, nether must be true. And both can be true at the same time.

God is clearly following a plan. History is in Divine control. Not only is there a plan but also a timetable. This is easily demonstrated from scripture. Men's ability to choose in no way limits God from doing exactly as He pleases.

Just because people believe where the Gospel is sent is neither confirmation of freewill or determinism. It merely attests to the power of the gospel. The Arminian will say as you do...see, people must be choosing. The Calvinist will say...God soverignly orchestrated the circumstances to save the elect who responded.

You seem to be so predisposed to one view that it informs your understanding of everything else. Others feel the same way but from the opposing view. As long as this is the case, we will get the same repetitious and often heated threads.

 

[Cameron143]

If by salvation (deliverance), you are referring to eternal, then I disagree with you, but if you are referring to a delivery that the child of God receives as he sojourns here on earth, then I agree with you. Salvation, according to Strong's concordance means "a deliverance

The child of God is delivered many times, as he sojourns here in this world, by his good works, but is delivered, one time only, not by his works.

Well that's a start. I'll take it.

 

[Magenta]

Well that's a start. I'll take it.

Scripture also says that all who love are born of God (1 John 4:7). It seems to me that most people
love. Are most all then born again? Whether they know it or not, agree with it or not? Just something
I have wondered about. It could be we need to define love better or differently.

1 Peter 4:8

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I was skipping around Youtube today. As I have said, I don't go by labels. I understand people have labeled all these POVs. But as I watched a Youtube discussion on the subject today, the person said he wasn't in either camp. So clearly there are places where things do get messy. But I don't think anyone here has said they save themselves, or that works save you. Still it has been repeated again and again as if it is fact.

They claim that they are not saved by their works, but their actions show that they do. Any action that is required for a person to act upon in order to receive anything is a work.

Salvation, according to Strong's concordance, means (a deliverance).. We are delivered one time only eternally, by God's sovereign grace, and the child of God is delivered many times as he sojourn here on earth.

The scriptures teach us that the born again child of God is commanded, by God, as he lives here on earth, to follow his commandments, and if they do follow his commandments, they are doing good works that causes them to be delivered (saved) from an unfruitful life.

This is why most of God's, well intended, children are confused about their works.

 

[Cameron143]

Scripture also says that all who love are born of God (1 John 4:7). It seems to me that most people
love. Are most all then born again? Whether they know it or not, agree with it or not? Just something
I have wondered about. It could be we need to define love better or differently.

1 Peter 4:8

Love is defined in 1st Corinthians 13. According to that definition, most people, including Christians, aren't very good at it.

What passes for love, in too many cases, falls well short of the love of God.

 

[Magenta]

Love is defined in 1st Corinthians 13. According to that definition, most people, including Christians, aren't very good at it.

What passes for love, in too many cases, falls well short of the love of God.

1 Cor 7:4-8a Love Light Shines

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Is the Scripture you refer to John 3:8?

The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where
it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Is that really describing the new birth? .. I could not say either, when exactly I was
born again, but I know when it was I realized I had finally stopped fighting against God.

But you have told me I was born again to experience certain things of God, even though I was
for years afterwards still a non-believer and devoid of faith in the shed righteous blood of Christ.

We were both latecomers .

I take it, by your reply, that you understand the difference in the new birth, and conversion, is that right?

 

[Sipsey]

Ironically, Spurgeon is using examples of people that God swore would never enter His rest because of their unbelief?

Are you including Moses, who only saw from a hilltop?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ironically, Spurgeon is using examples of people that God swore would never enter His rest because of their unbelief?

The "rest" that they did not enter into was "a fellowship with God", but they still have the promise of their eternal inheritance.

 

[Magenta]

1 Cor 7:4-8a Love Light Shines