Salvation is for the Whole World
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It's a good observation on your part. And part of the problem is that people are talking past each other instead of listening to one another.
I'll try to explain why some say it is a works gospel when in reality it is not.
Because both sides of the argument believe salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His perfect life securing our righteousness and substitutionary death satisfying God's wrath against us, all are saved. At least all who trust in that alone because that is all that is necessary for salvation. How someone comes to this estate is immaterial for salvation. Whether they credit it to God alone or their choice alone, or some combination of the the two doesn't matter because understanding the outworking of salvation isn't necessary for salvation. Either one truly believes or they do not.
But as we attempt to unravel what the scriptures teach about how we come to true salvation, the waters begin to be muddied. This is in part to the way God wrote the Bible. Unlike most books where the authors intent is clearly discernable, the Bible is written in such a way that it takes understanding that can only be received from its author. Since the author is infinite, there is no way for all His thoughts to be discovered unless they are revealed. And even then, the secret things still belong to the Lord.
Another reason is that the scripture is written in a way where different passages that seem plain enough by themselves, but quite opposite in meaning, often answer the same question equally well. For example, if I ask who did Jesus die for one might say for all the world...John 3:16, and another say all those who are ordained to eternal life...Acts 13:48. Who is right? Technically, both are because both used scripture.
So how does one reconcile the fact that two seemingly opposing scriptures answer the same question?
To me, the answer is very prayerfully and very humbly, always pressing for greater truth and acknowledging our own frailty in this matter.
As far as why would someone on the side of the reformed faith consider an individual's personal choice a work is because they believe anything done by an individual as part of salvation is a work. That is how they understand the scriptures. Faith, however, is a conduit of grace and belief is required for salvation.
I'll try to explain why some say it is a works gospel when in reality it is not.
Because both sides of the argument believe salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His perfect life securing our righteousness and substitutionary death satisfying God's wrath against us, all are saved. At least all who trust in that alone because that is all that is necessary for salvation. How someone comes to this estate is immaterial for salvation. Whether they credit it to God alone or their choice alone, or some combination of the the two doesn't matter because understanding the outworking of salvation isn't necessary for salvation. Either one truly believes or they do not.
But as we attempt to unravel what the scriptures teach about how we come to true salvation, the waters begin to be muddied. This is in part to the way God wrote the Bible. Unlike most books where the authors intent is clearly discernable, the Bible is written in such a way that it takes understanding that can only be received from its author. Since the author is infinite, there is no way for all His thoughts to be discovered unless they are revealed. And even then, the secret things still belong to the Lord.
Another reason is that the scripture is written in a way where different passages that seem plain enough by themselves, but quite opposite in meaning, often answer the same question equally well. For example, if I ask who did Jesus die for one might say for all the world...John 3:16, and another say all those who are ordained to eternal life...Acts 13:48. Who is right? Technically, both are because both used scripture.
So how does one reconcile the fact that two seemingly opposing scriptures answer the same question?
To me, the answer is very prayerfully and very humbly, always pressing for greater truth and acknowledging our own frailty in this matter.
As far as why would someone on the side of the reformed faith consider an individual's personal choice a work is because they believe anything done by an individual as part of salvation is a work. That is how they understand the scriptures. Faith, however, is a conduit of grace and belief is required for salvation.
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Some believe you are born again without faith or belief in God.
Let us not forget, too, that some believe if you accept or receive a gift, it is no longer a gift .
If you agree with God, you nullify His grace, since you are then working for your salvation .
Don't ask me how they come to these conclusions .
Let us not forget, too, that some believe if you accept or receive a gift, it is no longer a gift .
If you agree with God, you nullify His grace, since you are then working for your salvation .
Don't ask me how they come to these conclusions .
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Yes, of course, we need to see it by the context to understand what the Bible says. Christ speaks of the doctrine like that of Jude “which was once delivered unto the saints” for he speaks about the matter of the teachings or beliefs of Balaam or the Nicolitans. He was not speaking of his personal faith.
Now, this is how the phrase “faith of “was used in early Modern English. The KJb Translators did not use as you think to be, it’s far from the truth. They were speaking of something not related to the personal faith of Christ but something that signifies the teaching/ doctrine of the Church or the belief of the church. The “of” while it is true may refer to belongingness but can also be rendered as “pertaining to” as per Oxford Dictionary. Below are two examples used by the KJB Translators pertaining to the subject “faith of”.
§9 The translating of the Scripture into the vulgar tongues
• 1 Now though the Church were thus furnished with Greek and Latin translations, even before the faith of CHRIST was generally embraced in the Empire: [S.Hieronym. Marcell, Zosim.]
19 Nay, doth not Sixtus Quintus [Sixtus V. præfat. fixa Bibliis.] confess that certain Catholics (he meaneth certain of his own side) were in such a humour of translating the Scriptures into Latin, that Satan taking occasion by them, though they thought of no such matter, did strive what he could, out of so uncertain and manifold a variety of translations, so to mingle all things, that nothing might seem to be left certain and firm in them, etc.?
• 20 Nay, further, did not the same Sixtus ordain by an inviolable decree, and that with the counsel and consent of his cardinals, that the Latin edition of the Old and New Testament, which the Council of Trent would have to be authentic, is the same without controversy which he then set forth, being diligently corrected and printed in the printing-house of Vatican? Thus Sixtus in his preface before his Bible.
• 21 And yet Clement the Eighth his immediate successor, publisheth another edition of the Bible, containing in it infinite differences from that of Sixtus, (and many of them weighty and material) and yet this must be authentic by all means.
• 22 What is to have the faith of our glorious Lord JESUS CHRIST, with Yea and Nay, if this be not?
Of course, the “faith of” = (even) “believed in” . That’s simple.
Now, this is how the phrase “faith of “was used in early Modern English. The KJb Translators did not use as you think to be, it’s far from the truth. They were speaking of something not related to the personal faith of Christ but something that signifies the teaching/ doctrine of the Church or the belief of the church. The “of” while it is true may refer to belongingness but can also be rendered as “pertaining to” as per Oxford Dictionary. Below are two examples used by the KJB Translators pertaining to the subject “faith of”.
§9 The translating of the Scripture into the vulgar tongues
• 1 Now though the Church were thus furnished with Greek and Latin translations, even before the faith of CHRIST was generally embraced in the Empire: [S.Hieronym. Marcell, Zosim.]
19 Nay, doth not Sixtus Quintus [Sixtus V. præfat. fixa Bibliis.] confess that certain Catholics (he meaneth certain of his own side) were in such a humour of translating the Scriptures into Latin, that Satan taking occasion by them, though they thought of no such matter, did strive what he could, out of so uncertain and manifold a variety of translations, so to mingle all things, that nothing might seem to be left certain and firm in them, etc.?
• 20 Nay, further, did not the same Sixtus ordain by an inviolable decree, and that with the counsel and consent of his cardinals, that the Latin edition of the Old and New Testament, which the Council of Trent would have to be authentic, is the same without controversy which he then set forth, being diligently corrected and printed in the printing-house of Vatican? Thus Sixtus in his preface before his Bible.
• 21 And yet Clement the Eighth his immediate successor, publisheth another edition of the Bible, containing in it infinite differences from that of Sixtus, (and many of them weighty and material) and yet this must be authentic by all means.
• 22 What is to have the faith of our glorious Lord JESUS CHRIST, with Yea and Nay, if this be not?
Of course, the “faith of” = (even) “believed in” . That’s simple.
Some believe you are born again without faith or belief in God.
Let us not forget, too, that some believe if you accept or receive a gift, it is no longer a gift .
If you agree with God, you nullify His grace, since you are then working for your salvation .
Don't ask me how they come to these conclusions .
Let us not forget, too, that some believe if you accept or receive a gift, it is no longer a gift .
If you agree with God, you nullify His grace, since you are then working for your salvation .
Don't ask me how they come to these conclusions .
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Every human born into this world should be shown or told of the eternal hope that they can personally have through Jesus. That God’s love can overcome any sin, fault, or issue in life. Anything short of extending this hope to even the most heinous of individuals is nothing short of blasphemy.
To teach one may or may not be chosen because they missed out on a holy lottery, seems to be the alternative.
To teach one may or may not be chosen because they missed out on a holy lottery, seems to be the alternative.
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The first paragraph is correct. It's, in fact, commanded.
The second paragraph doesn't have to logically follow. Even if one believes as you say, predestination isn't part of the gospel. Just because a person believes in a limited atonement doesn't mean they wouldn't share the love of God with someone. How would they possibly know if someone was elect ahead of time? Faith still comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The second paragraph doesn't have to logically follow. Even if one believes as you say, predestination isn't part of the gospel. Just because a person believes in a limited atonement doesn't mean they wouldn't share the love of God with someone. How would they possibly know if someone was elect ahead of time? Faith still comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Some believe you are born again without faith or belief in God.
Let us not forget, too, that some believe if you accept or receive a gift, it is no longer a gift .
If you agree with God, you nullify His grace, since you are then working for your salvation .
Don't ask me how they come to these conclusions .
Let us not forget, too, that some believe if you accept or receive a gift, it is no longer a gift .
If you agree with God, you nullify His grace, since you are then working for your salvation .
Don't ask me how they come to these conclusions .
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.- 1Timothy 2:4 (KJB)
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Iyam, I think it has to do with Hypengyophobia, which may be rooted in the fear of failure. Yet, putting faith, or confidence, in a (most assuredly) (solid; immovable; rock) sure thing, has never, nor will ever, fail.
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.- 1Timothy 2:4 (KJB)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.- 1Timothy 2:4 (KJB)
Psalm 18:2-3
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He can just go Himself. That's what He did with Saul.
I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian. I'm just trying to broaden people's perspectives and show that what may appear at first glance inconsistent, are not inconsistent at all.
Until people move past their misconceptions and stereotypes religiously and begin to listen to each other and find out what they actually believe and what what it actually means, we'll keep having long threads needlessly.
I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian. I'm just trying to broaden people's perspectives and show that what may appear at first glance inconsistent, are not inconsistent at all.
Until people move past their misconceptions and stereotypes religiously and begin to listen to each other and find out what they actually believe and what what it actually means, we'll keep having long threads needlessly.
Iyam, I think it has to do with Hypengyophobia, which may be rooted in the fear of failure. Yet, putting faith, or confidence, in a (most assuredly) (solid; immovable; rock) sure thing, has never, nor will ever, fail.
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.- 1Timothy 2:4 (KJB)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.- 1Timothy 2:4 (KJB)
Think of how His grace has been sufficient for thee in all thy troubles-how His blood has been a pardon to thee in all thy sins-how His rod and His staff have comforted thee. When thou hast thus looked back upon the love of the Lord, then let faith survey His love in the future, for remember that Christ's covenant and blood have something more in them than the past. He who has loved thee and pardoned thee, shall never cease to love and pardon.
-Spurgeon
I am just going by the statement you made, which seems to have been stated according to the Calvinist view.
My point is this, if one sees the "elect" as the chosen by God, and I mean "chosen" I find it rather odd that God predominately selects from people in Western culture?
If we go by the biblical truth that while God has foreknowledge He does not select but people hear and believe then it makes sense why most believers are in places where the Gospel has been preached.
The Calvinist view holds God bound by geo-politics in terms of His selection, it is really makes no sense, but then Augustine and Calvin did not really think through the ramifications of their dogma.
As far back as my memory takes me, I have always believed that God is real, indicating that I was born again spiritually, but I was not converted to see and understand the truth of the harmonizing scriptures, until I was 62 years old.
I have found that most spiritual seeking people tend to think their conversion is their born again experience, which may be your experience.
The new birth, for me, came unrecognisable. The scriptures explains it as a gentle breeze that you don't know where it came, nor where it goes.
For me, my conversion came, as if it were a 4th of July fireworks, and I couldn't tell people what I had been shown fast enough.