I was talking about this seat, the one that is above all.
It is the throne of God, the throne of the Lamb
Christ is God
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I was talking about this seat, the one that is above all.
It is the throne of God, the throne of the Lamb
I understand what you are saying. Now notice what the verses are saying.
Daniel 7 gives us a glimpse of the Father and the Son, the Ancient of Days and the son of man.
In Mark Jesus references Daniel 7, son of man coming in the clouds, seated at the right hand of Power (aka the Father, the Ancient of Days)
Daniel 7
The Ancient of Days Reigns
[9] “As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire…
The Son of Man Is Given Dominion
[13] “I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
[14] And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.
———
Mark 14:61-64
[61] But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” [62] And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” [63] And the high priest tore his garments and said, “What further witnesses do we need? [64] You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?” And they all condemned him as deserving death.
During his human life here on earth, Jesus was fully human and fully divine--God in the flesh.
It's hard for even us as Christians to comprehend the fact that Jesus was human and God, and it's impossible for the unconverted mind to accept ("foolishness" as Paul said for the "carnal" mind to grasp).
"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30; NIV)
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
It seems there is also a hierarchy in the Godhead based on what Jesus says above. Even though they are "one", Jesus also says "the Father is greater than I." Is that because at the time Jesus said this, He was still in the flesh. Or, is He also subordinate to the Father in heaven? Interesting, that He also currently serves as our "High Priest" and makes intercession for us to God the Father.
Here's another sidebar question: why was it necessary for Jesus to rejoin God the Father at the throne in heaven to make possible the coming gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?
God is One. That is a critical core doctrine of our Christian faith: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--Amen!
Yes, in Mark they recognize He is making Himself equal to God because Daniel presents the Son of Man as equal with God.
Amen
My intention with this thread is not to get mired in debates but for it to be a collection of proofs of the deity of Christ.
Both texts showing that the Messiah has equality with God and texts identifying the Messiah as God Himself for that purpose
Thanks! I think what you put actually wasn't in here yet? Tho no problem with repeating material, it's become a pretty long thread
=]
Psalm_118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD YEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation/Yeshua/Jesus.
H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh = Jesus/Joshua
yesh-oo’-aw
Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD YEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation/Yeshua/Jesus.
H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh = Jesus/Joshua
yesh-oo’-aw
Daniel 7
Easy-to-Read Version
Daniel’s Dream About Four Animals
7 During the first year that Belshazzar[a] was king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream. He saw these visions while he was lying on his bed, and he wrote what he had dreamed. 2 Daniel said, “I saw my vision at night. In the vision the wind was blowing from all four directions. These winds made the sea rough. 3 I saw four big animals and each one was different from the others. These four animals came up out of the sea.
4 “The first animal looked like a lion, but it had wings like an eagle. As I watched, its wings were torn off. It was helped up from the ground, and it stood up on two feet like a human. Then it was given a human mind.
5 “Then I saw another animal there in front of me that looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat all the meat you want!’
6 “After that I noticed another animal in front of me. It looked like a leopard, but it had four wings on its back. This animal had four heads. It was given authority to rule.
7 “After that, in my vision at night, I looked, and there in front of me was a fourth animal. It looked very cruel and terrifying. It looked very strong, with large iron teeth. This animal crushed and ate its victims and walked on whatever was left of them. This fourth animal was different from all the animals I saw before it. This animal had ten horns.
8 “While I was looking at the horns and thinking about them, another horn grew up among them. This was a little horn with eyes like a human. It also had a mouth that was bragging. Then the little horn pulled out three of the other horns.
Judgment of the Fourth Animal
9 “As I was looking, thrones were put in their places,
and the Ancient King b sat on his throne.
His clothes were as white as snow.
His hair was as white as wool.
His throne was made from fire,[c]
and its wheels were made from flames.
10 A river of fire flowed out
from in front of the Ancient King.
Millions of people were serving him.
Hundreds of millions of people stood in front of him.
Court was ready to begin,
and the books were opened.
11 “I kept on looking because the little horn was bragging. I kept watching until finally the fourth animal was killed. Its body was destroyed, and it was thrown into the burning fire. 12 The authority and rule of the other animals had been taken from them. But they were permitted to live for a certain period of time.
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there in front of me was someone who looked like a human being.[d] He was coming on the clouds in the sky. He came up to the Ancient King, and the King’s servants brought him before the King.
14 “The one who looked like a human being was given authority, glory, and complete ruling power. People from every nation and language group will serve him. His rule will last forever. His kingdom will continue forever. It will never be destroyed.
The Meaning of Daniel’s Dream
15 “I, Daniel, was confused and worried. The visions that went through my mind bothered me. 16 I went to someone who was standing there and asked him what all this meant. So he explained it to me. 17 He said, ‘The four great animals are four kingdoms that will come from the earth. 18 But God’s holy people will receive the kingdom, and they will have the kingdom forever and ever.’
19 “Then I wanted to know what the fourth animal was and what it meant. The fourth animal was different from all the other animals. It was very terrible and had iron teeth and bronze claws. It was the animal that crushed and ate its victims and walked on whatever was left. 20 I wanted to know about the ten horns that were on the fourth animal’s head and about the little horn that grew there. That little horn pulled out three of the other ten horns. That little horn had eyes and a mouth that kept on bragging, and it looked bigger than the other horns. 21 As I was watching, this little horn began attacking and making war against God’s holy people and killing them. 22 The little horn kept killing God’s holy people until the Ancient King came and judged him. The Ancient King announced his decision about the little horn. This judgment helped God’s holy people, and they received the kingdom.
23 “And he explained this to me: ‘The fourth animal is a fourth kingdom that will come on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms. That fourth kingdom will destroy people all around the world. It will walk on and crush nations all around the world. 24 The ten horns are ten kings that will come from this fourth kingdom. After those ten kings are gone, another king will come. He will be different from the kings who ruled before him. He will defeat three of the other kings. 25 This special king will say things against God Most High, and he will hurt and kill God’s special people. That king will try to change the times and laws that have already been set. God’s holy people will be under that king’s power for three and one-half years.[e]
26 “‘But the court will decide what should happen, and that king’s power will be taken away. His kingdom will end completely. 27 Then God’s holy people will rule over the kingdom and all the people from all the kingdoms of earth.[f] This kingdom will last forever, and people from all the other kingdoms will respect and serve them.’
28 “And that was the end of the dream. I, Daniel, was very afraid. My face became very white from fear, and I did not tell the other people what I saw and heard.”
Footnotes
- Daniel 7:1 the first year … Belshazzar This was about 553 B.C.
- Daniel 7:9 Ancient King Literally, “Ancient of Days.” This name pictures God as a great king who has ruled since ancient times. Also in verses 10, 13, 22.
- Daniel 7:9 fire Or “light.”
- Daniel 7:13 someone … human being Or “a person, a real human being.” Literally, “like a son of man.” This means he looked like a normal person, not an angel or an animal.
- Daniel 7:25 three and one-half years Literally, “time, times and half time.”
- Daniel 7:27 God’s holy people … earth Literally, “The rule and kingdom and greatness of the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the saints.”
What an awesome vision Daniel had, and it was a foretaste of Jesus' prophetic return to earth that was developed in more detail in the New Testament. I like the description of the "Ancient of Days'" (love this title for Christ!) throne with wheels made from flames. This particular throne at least is not stagnate in a fixed location. It is mobile and quite glorious. Ezekiel describes what may be this same mobile throne in more descriptive language in the first chapter of his book.
The apostle John was also given a similar vision of Jesus sitting on a throne in heaven in Revelation 4:
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Notice the reference to 24 other thrones for the 24 elders who serve and worship Christ. God the Father is not present in this vision, so He could be at the headquarters in heaven seated on the throne in the Holy of Holies (pure speculation, of course, and beyond what my trite finite mind can comprehend...). Perhaps that throne is a bench style, so Jesus and God the Father can sit side-by-side
(now, I'm really pushing it!...LOL).I think there are other thrones mentioned in scripture for the apostles and David as well, and I will look for those later.
Great thread and theme on the thrones in God's kingdom!
What an awesome vision Daniel had, and it was a foretaste of Jesus' prophetic return to earth that was developed in more detail in the New Testament. I like the description of the "Ancient of Days'" (love this title for Christ!) throne with wheels made from flames. This particular throne at least is not stagnate in a fixed location. It is mobile and quite glorious. Ezekiel describes what may be this same mobile throne in more descriptive language in the first chapter of his book.
The apostle John was also given a similar vision of Jesus sitting on a throne in heaven in Revelation 4:
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Notice the reference to 24 other thrones for the 24 elders who serve and worship Christ. God the Father is not present in this vision, so He could be at the headquarters in heaven seated on the throne in the Holy of Holies (pure speculation, of course, and beyond what my trite finite mind can comprehend...). Perhaps that throne is a bench style, so Jesus and God the Father can sit side-by-side
I think there are other thrones mentioned in scripture for the apostles and David as well, and I will look for those later.
Great thread and theme on the thrones in God's kingdom!
Here is one of the references to the apostles' thrones...
Matt. 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Here is a good reference to David's future role (how awesone):
After carefully studying the Old Testament prophets Jeremiah, Hosea and Ezekiel, one cannot come to any other conclusion than this: King David will reign in Jerusalem under Jesus, the Messiah during the millennium.
Consider the following passages of scripture which address conditions during the millennium:
- Hosea 3:5
Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. - Jeremiah 30:9
But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. - Ezekiel 34:23-24
And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. - Ezekiel 37:24-25
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
It is written
Christ said God is a Spirit.
Does this mean that Christ is that same Spirit?
If so, what Spirit is that?
Christ said the Father is in Him and He in the Father so, How can that be possible since, normally, if one is on inside then the other is on the outside? Yet, there you have it in Christ's own words. 1Peter3:19 also says that Christ is in the Spirit...whom is also in Him.
1Peter3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison
The last word of John 1:1 is not theos.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word.
You are simply just parsing words in the order they appear in Greek, but that's not exactly how you would communicate it in English. Word order in Greek can reflect entirely different things in English, and vice-versa.
In 1:1c, "God" is a preverbal predicate nominative. That means it is not the subject. The subject of the verse is "the Word." The preverbal predicate nominative ("God") is being used to further describe the subject. Thus, in English, this would not be rendered the way you have parsed it out.
Take the simple English phrase, "The cat is kind." The subject of the sentence is "the cat," while the term "kind" further describes the subject. To say in English what the author intended in Greek would be, "the Word was God." By parsing it the way you do, you are misunderstanding Greek tenses and making "God" the subject, when in fact, it is "the Word" that is the subject.
1 Peter 4:11
If anyone speaks, [let him] [speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
to Christ belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever
1 Peter 5:10-11
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle [you.] To Him [be] the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
to God belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever
ergo,
Christ is equivalent to God
If anyone speaks, [let him] [speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
to Christ belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever
1 Peter 5:10-11
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle [you.] To Him [be] the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
to God belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever
ergo,
Christ is equivalent to God
Ezekiel 34:17
And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats."
it is God Who judges the sheep from the goats
Matthew 25:31-33
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
and Christ says He Himself is the One Who will judge the sheep from the goats.
this is an explicit claim to do what God alone does.
ergo
Christ is God