This shows me you lack understanding even more than I thought, the elect are ungodly from the womb like any other sinner born of Adam, difference being, they are born Justified by Christs Blood and non elect are not.
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
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nope ... 1 Cor 2:14 states "loud and clear !" that "the natural man has no Spiritual capacity to Spiritually understand" ...
vs 6 – the wisdom which was discussed among the mature believers ... on the other hand, the gospel was taught in the general congregation (vss 1-2) which consisted of those not yet born again, newly born again ones, believers who had been born again for awhile yet were still carnal, and mature believers..
vs 7 – the wisdom of God in a mystery ... this wisdom was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25); and in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5); and from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9); and which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26). Again, the gospel was never hid ... the gospel is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelaton.
vs 8 – the fact that if the devil and his minions had known the mystery, the hidden wisdom, they never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.
vs 9 – the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him ... these things go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 10 – the deep things of God ... these things go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 11 – the things of God which no man knoweth ... these things go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 12 – the things that are freely given to us of God ... these things go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 13 – things which the Holy Ghost teacheth ... these things go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 14 – the things of the Spirit of God and specifically the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom ... these things go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
your manipulation of Scripture to force God's Word to align with your erroneous dogma is error. I have explained this to you ... yet you continue to conflate the gospel with the mystery, the hidden wisdom. You will never be able to fully comprehend Scripture when you veer off from the truth the Author has laid out.
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There is only One Elect ... that is Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.
All descendants of Adam are born just as Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us:
Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein [trespasses and sins] in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Once a descendant of Adam is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). At that moment, he or she is considered "elect" because of the Elect Who abides within him or her (Christ in you the hope of glory –Col 1:27)
if a person is "born Justified", some (if not all) of the verbs in Romans 4:5 would be in past tense. However, all the verbs are in present tense.brightfame52 said:
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh [verb, present tense] not, but believeth [verb, present tense] on him that justifieth [verb, present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [verb, present tense] for righteousness.
The person not working - present tense
The person believing - present tense
God that justifies - present tense
God counts - present tense
Romans 4:5 reveals that faith is not works ... contrary to what some believe/teach.
Romans 4:5 reveals that God imputes righteousness at the same time the person believes in Him.
At that point, the person is justified ... present tense.
Scripture has again revealed that your futile attempt to manipulate what was written by the Author has failed.
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Yes, the natural man has no Spiritual capacity to Spiritually understand the Gospel 1 Cor 2:14 states that loud and clear ! Its[The Gospel of the Cross] foolishness' to the natural man, restated from 1 Cor 1:17-18
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The difference between the ungodly elect and the ungodly non elect reprobate is the elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Christ Redeemed them with His Blood Eph 1:7, but the non elect of course were not chosen in Christ before the foundation, and therefore were not the objects of Christs redeeming blood, so they must justly perish in their sins.
Just because the word "foolishness" is found in 1 Cor 1:18 and 1 Cor 2:14, that does not change the gospel into the mystery, the hidden wisdom ... nor does it change the fact that 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the mystery, the hidden wisdom.
In 1 Cor 1:18-23, we find that what is foolishness to those who are perishing is twofold:
first ... they reject the message that Christ, and Him crucified can in any way save them ... they consider it foolishness that a condemned man being crucified can save them. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness just as Rom 1:18 tells us.
secondly ... the Jews require a sign and the "sign" God gave them is a stumblingblock to them. The Greeks seek after wisdom and, again, Christ crucified is rejected as a means of saving mankind.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness
As to 1 Cor 2:14, you are incorrect in your surmisings that the gospel is the same as the mystery, the hidden wisdom.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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now you're just doubling down on your unsubstantiated beliefs.Romans 1 makes clear that people are not born reprobate. Romans 1 explains the process whereby a person goes through the process ... the downward spiral to reprobate.
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them
vs 16 – the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.
vs 17 – the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of Christ.
vs 18 – those who do not believe the gospel suppress the truth in unrighteousness. And please note, the verse does not state (as you erroneously claim) that they cannot hear the gospel. The verse says that when they hear they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
vs 19 – further corroborates that God reveals Himself and some reject God. Again, the verse makes clear it is man who rejects God.
Romans 1:21 – 32 reveals the downward spiral to the endpoint of the reprobate mind. No one is born in that state. The reprobate mind is the result of man stepping further and further away from God. As a person continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness, there are downward steps to the reprobate mind:
vs 21 – foolish heart becomes darkened which results in behaviors shown in vss 22-23
vs 24 – given up to uncleanness which results in behaviors shown in vss 24-25
vs 26 – given up to vile affections which results in behaviors shown in vss 26-27
vs 28 – reprobate mind which results in behaviors shown in vss 28-32
The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, the whole world, all descendants of Adam.brightfame52 said:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What God wants for the wicked:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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1 Cor 2:14 and 1 Cor 1:18 compliment one another, saying the very exact same thing with different terminology. The natural man cannot understand the Spiritual Concepts of the Cross, the Gospel, he lacks Spiritual discernment being without the Spirit. The Cross/Gospel is foolishness' to him.
So do you understand that both the elect and non elect enter into this world as ungodly, dead in sin, enemies of God ? Remember the difference is God chose some in Christ before the foundation, and the rest He didnt chose in Christ.
Romans 1 makes clear that people are not born reprobate. Romans 1 explains the process whereby a person goes through the process ... the downward spiral to reprobate.
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them
vs 16 – the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.
vs 17 – the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of Christ.
vs 18 – those who do not believe the gospel suppress the truth in unrighteousness. And please note, the verse does not state (as you erroneously claim) that they cannot hear the gospel. The verse says that when they hear they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
vs 19 – further corroborates that God reveals Himself and some reject God. Again, the verse makes clear it is man who rejects God.
Romans 1:21 – 32 reveals the downward spiral to the endpoint of the reprobate mind. No one is born in that state. The reprobate mind is the result of man stepping further and further away from God. As a person continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness, there are downward steps to the reprobate mind:
vs 21 – foolish heart becomes darkened which results in behaviors shown in vss 22-23
vs 24 – given up to uncleanness which results in behaviors shown in vss 24-25
vs 26 – given up to vile affections which results in behaviors shown in vss 26-27
vs 28 – reprobate mind which results in behaviors shown in vss 28-32
The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, the whole world, all descendants of Adam.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What God wants for the wicked:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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When scripture says Christ died for the ungodly Rom 5:6
For when we[elect believers] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Its means the Elect !
it sounds like your justifying your own faith, sorry friend but this is no reason for calling the ungodly elect
edit I quoted the wrong post above,
I'm sorry friend this is no reason to justify your own mistake of calling the ungodly elect. Ungodly and being a sinner may imply the same definition, to you, but not me, would God justify me claiming false hoods on you, it's ok to make a mistake, but you should accept responsibility, for it, I thought you where being facetious, and where not serious, what your saying will never compute with Christians, it will just go over the top op people heads and disregarded no matter how you try to explain a term ungodly elect. For me it's no big deal just a simple miss pronunciation, maybe your provoked at the moment or actually unhappy with ungodliness, but please don't persist, it's dead horse, the ungodly is past tense when you have been Justified by faith. Your debating past tense reasoning, let's forget it.
Your denial of the truth of Scripture concerning the difference between the gospel and the mystery, the hidden wisdom does not mean the gospel is "the exact same thing" as the mystery, the hidden wisdom.
The gospel is the gospel ... the mystery, the hidden wisdom is the mystery, the hidden wisdom.
No one knew of this mystery, the hidden wisdom because it was hid in God until God revealed it to Paul.
God never hid the gospel ...
Until God revealed the mystery, the hidden wisdom to Paul, the mystery, the hidden wisdom was kept secret since the world began:
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began
Until God revealed the mystery, the hidden wisdom to Paul, the mystery, the hidden wisdom was not made known:
Ephesians 3:4-5 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit
Until God revealed the mystery, the hidden wisdom to Paul, the mystery, the hidden wisdom was hid in God from the beginning of the world:
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ
Until God revealed the mystery, the hidden wisdom to Paul, the mystery, the hidden wisdom was hid from ages and from generations ... BUT NOW made known:
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
Your problem is that you conflate the mystery, the hidden wisdom with the Gospel.
conflate
to combine two or more separate things
.All descendants of Adam are born in the same boat ... all walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath (Eph 2:2-3).
God does not use the term "ungodly elect" ... nor does God use the term "ungodly non-elect".
{quote=brightfame52]God chose some in Christ before the foundation, and the rest He didnt chose[/quote]
Here is what God tells us:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I will stick with God. Your erroneous dogma requires manipulation of Scripture which changes what the Author of Scripture wrote.
There is only One "Elect" ... that is the Lord Jesus Christ.brightfame52 said:
All descendants of Adam are born just as Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us. Once a descendant of Adam is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). At that moment, he or she is considered "elect" because of the Elect Who abides within him or her (Christ in you the hope of glory –Col 1:27).
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Here is what God tells us:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I will stick with God. Your erroneous dogma requires manipulation of Scripture which changes what the Author of Scripture wrote.
There is only One "Elect" ... that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
All descendants of Adam are born just as Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us. Once a descendant of Adam is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). At that moment, he or she is considered "elect" because of the Elect Who abides within him or her (Christ in you the hope of glory –Col 1:27).
.[/QUOTE]It does not get any more simple than this, I think its so easy to see departure , the problem arisesw hen we think with our carnal mind, the departure being disassociation of the spirit untill we commune. Maybe it's a vacant spell we all have , when we do not commune in prayer, our carnal mind takes over our understanding, how many would immediately recognise the elect as being the spirit that lives in you, the moment you read any scripture that quotes the elect, I suppose tho elect could have a difference between the elected chosen,
QUOTE]It does not get any more simple than this, I think its so easy to see departure , the problem arises when we think with our carnal mind, the departure being disassociation of the spirit untill we commune. Maybe it's a vacant spell we all have , when we do not commune in prayer, our carnal mind takes over our understanding, how many would immediately recognise the elect as being the spirit that lives in you, the moment you read any scripture that quotes the elect, I suppose tho elect could have a difference between the elected chosen, when translated. But missed by the interpretation.
The natural man cannot understand the Gospel, its foolishness to him, because it must be Spiritually discerned.
Here is what God tells us:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I will stick with God. Your erroneous dogma requires manipulation of Scripture which changes what the Author of Scripture wrote.
There is only One "Elect" ... that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
All descendants of Adam are born just as Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us. Once a descendant of Adam is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). At that moment, he or she is considered "elect" because of the Elect Who abides within him or her (Christ in you the hope of glory –Col 1:27).
.[/QUOTE]
I kinda figured several post ago, this is what you ment by the term, unGodly elect. But where only chosen for adoption if we choose to Believe, If I'm now understanding your op, it's all about you explaining, what you mean by who Justifies the ungodly,
I'm still having a hard time accepting these phrases Of unGodly elect, and who Justifies the unGodly, but I now know what your trying to explain, I think.
How ever the phrases does still not sit right with me,
LIke I said it's no big deal to me. And thanks for explaining.