Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

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cv5 said:
No....men only, marriage optional/not necessary. Thats the net of it IMO. Female pastors/elders no bueno...very clearly. Deacons.....definitely OK for females.

The thing is.....a critic would have to stand up with 2 or 3 witnesses and condemn J. Vernon McGee (and Timothy and John I suppose). Not only that, you would likewise have to condemn those WHO ORDAINED THEM as well....:oops:o_O

Not gonna happen IMO.
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Albeit in a different context of law, Jesus said, "woman, where are thy accusers, does no one condemn thee?" after having given this instruction to everyone, "let the one without sin cast the first stone (carryout rendered judgment/justice)."

And I haven't seen any stones coming by Jesus' hand to date.
 
Mem said:
Albeit in a different context of law, Jesus said, "woman, where are thy accusers, does no one condemn thee?" after having given this instruction to everyone, "let the one without sin cast the first stone (carryout rendered judgment/justice)."

And I haven't seen any stones coming by Jesus' hand to date.
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Its not gonna happen because they are not guilty of violating Church doctrine is my point.
 
cv5 said:
Its not gonna happen because they are not guilty of violating Church doctrine is my point.
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True. All must grow together, the wheat and the tares, because only 'the one' can, without question, sort them out with an unfailing degree of expertise.
 
Mem said:
True. All must grow together, the wheat and the tares, because only 'the one' can, without question, sort them out with an unfailing degree of expertise.
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Well....the Warren fella is a tare this we can plainly see.
J. Vernon McGee? Not so much.
 
cv5 said:
Well....the Warren fella is a tare this we can plainly see.
J. Vernon McGee? Not so much.
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I'm not familiar with either of them enough to render my judgement towards that. If going only on that McGee's opinions have been preserved long after his death (if he's deceased?) then, just by that criterium, we should accept Alistair Crowley's testimony also.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Both elders and deacons are to be married men, and mature Christians. But the ministry of the
Word is reserved for the elders (or pastor/elder/bishops) as shepherds and overseers of the flock.

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder...
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Paul was not married.
 
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I'm off to work, uggh. I thought this was all supposed to be a male thing.
GBAKY.
 
cv5 said:
Here you go...... J. Vernon McGee had pastored at least FOUR different Churches before he became married.
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Just because men ignored the Bible directives does not mean that they should be ignored. And there was always a plurality of elders (several pastors) in the NT churches, which has also been ignored.
 
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Magenta said:
Paul was not married.
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Paul was an apostle and primarily a missionary who traveled widely. He even said that he could have married but did not do so because of his apostolic ministry. It is believed that he may have even been a widower (since Jewish men rarely remained single). Elders on the other hand were appointed in local churches as shepherds of that flock, and God requires that elders be married men. Indeed He gives a very specific and sound reason for that. Please check it out.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Just because men ignored the Bible directives does not mean that they should be ignored. And there was always a plurality of elders (several pastors) in the NT churches, which has also been ignored.
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I think you lost this round bro. There is plenty of NT evidence that marriage was not mandatory for elders or pastors. And lots of early Church evidence too.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Paul was an apostle and primarily a missionary who traveled widely. He even said that he could have married but did not do so because of his apostolic ministry. It is believed that he may have even been a widower (since Jewish men rarely remained single). Elders on the other hand were appointed in local churches as shepherds of that flock, and God requires that elders be married men. Indeed He gives a very specific and sound reason for that. Please check it out.
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I am aware that Paul could have been a widower, but that does not change the FACT
that he was not married and therefore did not fulfill the requirements to be an elder.

That is, as some believe the requirements were, although truthfully, I believe that passage is simply
addressed to men and married men at that, telling them they must not have more than one wife.
 
Magenta said:
I am aware that Paul could have been a widower, but that does not change the FACT
that he was not married and therefore did not fulfill the requirements to be an elder.
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And he certainly WAS an elder. He was consulted, held council, attended council, issued verdicts and solidified doctrine on many of the most important prevailing Church matters in all of all history.
 
Magenta said:
I am aware that Paul could have been a widower, but that does not change the FACT
that he was not married and therefore did not fulfill the requirements to be an elder.

That is, as some believe the requirements were, although truthfully, I believe that passage is simply
addressed to men and married men at that, telling them they must not have more than one wife.
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Paul wasn't exactly an Elder of a particular church. He was an Apostle...a traveling man who was there to create and establish churches with correct doctrines.

Each church was mostly autonomous...the Apostles were responsible for doctrines and theologies. Some local authority was given them as they each had local issues that they struggled with.

Just before the last Apostle died (John) most of the churches established had some issue with some form of gnosticism. Which is one of the focuses of John's Gospel. (Theology)
 
cv5 said:
EDIT^^
"I for one refuse to render an accusation against these esteemed unmarried pastors/elders. Anybody else willing?"
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No, why would we accuse them, Satan is the accuser of the brethren.

It reminds me of the ridiculous rule about speed limits. I worked with a teacher who drove 100 mph on a road that had a 65 mph limit and he was never in an accident. So that proves we don't need speed limits.

2 But, because of fornications, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband

As we all know there has never been any problems with fornication or adultery in the church so having these rules may have been out of an abundance of caution, but obviously completely unnecessary. Just like there have never been any car accidents due to speeding.

I'm just wondering though, these people you mentioned that I don't know, why if they were talented preachers and teachers of the word should they be tied to one congregation as a pastor instead of being able to travel and minister to everyone?
 
cv5 said:
And he certainly WAS an elder. He was consulted, held council, attended council, issued verdicts and solidified doctrine on many of the most important prevailing Church matters in all of all history.
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Paul was not a pastor of any church, he was an apostle who travelled from city to city with the gospel, taught the word, and raised up churches appointing elders in every place that he was.
 
ZNP said:
Paul was not a pastor of any church, he was an apostle who travelled from city to city with the gospel, taught the word, and raised up churches appointing elders in every place that he was.
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He probably changed hats and was a real pastor more than once. Likely in Ephesus as he was there over 2 years. And he DEFINITELY was an elder.
 
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