Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.

I had already posted very early in the thread about Phoebe being a deaconess. That's acceptable because that's in the Bible. There are plenty of examples of women being in elder and gifted positions (prophetess for example). The position of pastor however - highest position over a church or body of believers - Paul has outlined for men.

I've also written elsewhere in this thread, that God makes exceptions where there are no male believers available or only wimpy men present, where God will then choose a woman to be leader instead. Notice, however, throughout the Bible that this is not often.

 

[Dino246]

I had already posted very early in the thread about Phoebe being a deaconess. That's acceptable because that's in the Bible. There are plenty of examples of women being in elder and gifted positions (prophetess for example). The position of pastor however - highest position over a church or body of believers - Paul has outlined for men.

There isn’t a single verse that prohibits a woman from being a pastor. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

I've also written elsewhere in this thread, that God makes exceptions where there are no male believers available or only wimpy men present, where God will then choose a woman to be leader instead. Notice, however, throughout the Bible that this is not often.

When you consider the ratio of bad male leaders in Scripture to good male leaders, and bad female leaders to good ones, you might change your view. There is no biblical support for the idea that God raises females to leadership only when no suitable men are available. Don’t make doctrine from narrative.

 

[shittim]

Most today, according to Jesus, have an outward form of godliness denying the power, most churches talk "about" Him and do not impart Holy Spirit nor invite Him to be present.
The "pastor" today may not be the same duty and calling it was then, before religion was promoted over relationship.

 

[Mem]

That verse is NOT about troublesome women. It is about how women can work out their salvation through their ministry within the family (as wives and mothers).

The role of Christian mothers in bringing up children cannot be overstressed. But ever since the 1960s Western women (and more recently feminists) have shown their disdain for the role that God has given them as wives and mothers, by focusing on work outside the home, competing with men, and wearing pantsuits to show that they are equal (or more than equal to men). The emasculation of men in the West (and particularly in America) has been going on for a long time. This has also led to many divorces, single mothers, etc. But God's ideal women is depicted in Proverbs 31:10-31. This describes a well respected woman who fully exercises her ministry.

No one can emasculate any man merely by assertion and those that allow themselves to be emasculated can be considered 'well respected" as much in the same way you've asserted that a woman who "fully exercises her ministry" is only then 'well respected.' This 'well respected' woman must fully submit herself to men in general, and there are many 'well respected' women that continually disparage themselves to be such.

 

[Beckie]

That verse is NOT about troublesome women. It is about how women can work out their salvation through their ministry within the family (as wives and mothers).

The role of Christian mothers in bringing up children cannot be overstressed. But ever since the 1960s Western women (and more recently feminists) have shown their disdain for the role that God has given them as wives and mothers, by focusing on work outside the home, competing with men, and wearing pantsuits to show that they are equal (or more than equal to men). The emasculation of men in the West (and particularly in America) has been going on for a long time. This has also led to many divorces, single mothers, etc. But God's ideal women is depicted in Proverbs 31:10-31. This describes a well respected woman who fully exercises her ministry.

and wearing pantsuits to show that they are equal

Really? In my teens way back about 1962... having a discussion about me wanting to ware jeans with dad..... as long as i was not disrespectful we could have 'discussions' ... Levi's were the rage of the day.... the pocket Ws were removed along with the belt loops waist band rolled over and the cuffs tucked under about mid calf. No boy at that time would be caught dead doing that to his Levi"s. At this time girls could not wear pants to school... Back to the discussion ..
As expected Dad brings up ...
Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Politely, i ask him what men were wearing at the time of the Scriptures ? Robes is the answer what were women wearing robes .

My Levi's were not 'dike' clothes . Nor do I believe that a man who used his cloak or robe to shield a women from the cold was being sinful.

We are told to wear sandals .
Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.

What type of shoe do we wear and is that against the Scriptures? Some time common sense , using the brain God gave us is a good thing..

 

[Beckie]

Most today, according to Jesus, have an outward form of godliness denying the power, most churches talk "about" Him and do not impart Holy Spirit nor invite Him to be present.
The "pastor" today may not be the same duty and calling it was then, before religion was promoted over relationship.

Thinking the, God given, male and female roles can be interchanged to my understanding is part of the problem you speak of in your post .

 

[Godsgirl1983]

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

 

[cv5]

I don't know what time frame you're using to describe the early church. However, Paul's churches had both women and men in what today is called the pastoral or ministerial offices, as well as other offices of service. They were elders, presbyteros. Often called overseer or supervisor, episkopos.

Acts 18:24-26
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos from Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord, and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.
Passages in scripture also talk about those women who were the head of their household. And there's more.

I will say if someone thinks God can't call women to bring his word and help lead people to his message, they're wrong.

It was a man that got us into this mess in the beginning. Romans 5 12,“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.”


Because he couldn't lead his woman to obey God rather than be tempted by a snake to disobey God.

Thinking God wouldn't call women to bring the message that leads humanity to repentance from that sin, or to be leaders in service to God when the first man failed as a leader, is silly and biblically indefensible.
The countless women in service under God's appointment today proves God knows what he's doing.

Priscilla and Aquila were man and wife. No doubt the man was the leader/head of the household/pastor.
The wife was in a supporting role whatever that may be.

Women are ALWAYS in a supporting role in the early Church. There has never been a female pastor actually leading a Church recorded
for thousands of years. Today there are.....but of course these are the last fading seconds of the "last days".....so this kind of breakdown in settled doctrine is to be expected.

If you can find a woman here by name let me know....
G4245 - presbyteros - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
G1985 - episkopos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

On the other hand we have the term "diakonos"
G1249 - diakonos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

1. the servant of a king
2. a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
3. a waiter, one who serves food and drink

Of which description Phebe and certainly many many other women were, including those of Christ's disciples....
Rom 16:1
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant G1249 of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Mar 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
Mar 15:41
(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him), and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.

 

[cv5]

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

I avoid all woke nutter Churches like the plague. If it is glossy, glittery, loud and proud and Biblically off the rails.....I am OUT OF THERE!

 

[Mem]

Some time common sense , using the brain God gave us is a good thing..

Thinking the, God given, male and female roles can be interchanged to my understanding is part of the problem you speak of in your post .

It is an anomaly to find a woman who possesses more muscle mass than a man and so taking out the trash might be more cumbersome for her but it doesn't preclude her from the task. It has been long implied, and will eventually be outright asserted, with the premise being drawn from similarly derived distinctions, that a woman's rational facilities are wanting when juxtaposed to that of a man, so this is why she should 'sit Ubu, sit (my paraphrase).'

 

[cv5]

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

BTW....I auditioned two different "Churches" around here.
One was preaching "U2" (yes the occult rock band) during the service. Like preaching authoritatively using them as a model to follow.
The other was preaching "Madonna" (yes the occult daughter of Babylon singer) during the service.....SPECIFICALLY to young people. By a female speaker (youth pastor? not sure as I did not stick around). Like preaching authoritatively using her as a model to follow.

I bailed out immediately from both and never when back. In fact the one Church, I happen to see one of the pastors in the parking lot on the way out and told him EXACTLY what I found unacceptable at that service. Zero repentance from him.

At the "U2 Church" I recently found out that a couple who attend this Church (who I thought were married) are in fact NOT married and have been "partners" living together (supposedly waiting for the earlier divorce to fininsh.....for the last 10 years!) for a decade or more. And the lady quotes Scripture to beat the band.

And there you go. A small sampling of the present state of affairs.

Did I mention another small town Church (many years ago), who's member (a lady) told me of the "vodka parties" that everyone was enjoying. Yep. Thats what she said. Never bothered going there. Thanks for the warning lady!

 

[Scribe]

You're right. My apologies @Scribe.

I understood who you were responding to.

 

[Scribe]

It gets discussed often in CC.

Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.

I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.

Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"

Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.

Here are some links to the full articles:
This is Paynes full article
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

I am still having trouble finding the article that Payne is responding to by Moo but I know it is out there because I have downloaded it in the past.
https://www.ccphilly.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Moo-1-Tim-2.pdf

I am posting for those who are interested in such resources. Maybe I will be able to find this post with a search in CC in a few months when the subject gets rehashed again.

 

[cv5]

I don't know what time frame you're using to describe the early church. However, Paul's churches had both women and men in what today is called the pastoral or ministerial offices, as well as other offices of service. They were elders, presbyteros. Often called overseer or supervisor, episkopos.

Acts 18:24-26
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos from Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord, and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.
Passages in scripture also talk about those women who were the head of their household. And there's more.

I will say if someone thinks God can't call women to bring his word and help lead people to his message, they're wrong.

It was a man that got us into this mess in the beginning. Romans 5 12,“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.”


Because he couldn't lead his woman to obey God rather than be tempted by a snake to disobey God.

Thinking God wouldn't call women to bring the message that leads humanity to repentance from that sin, or to be leaders in service to God when the first man failed as a leader, is silly and biblically indefensible.
The countless women in service under God's appointment today proves God knows what he's doing.

One more point that I would like to make if you don't mind.
Aquila and Priscilla were Jews. Given the age-old tenets of that culture, it is unfathomable and inconceivable that the wife would or could ever accede to take a superior authoritative position (or even equally authoritative) part in the marriage or their ministry. In fact they would probably be chastised and excommunicated if they tried it and persisted in it IMO.

Act 18:2
And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

 

[cv5]

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

Just thought you might want to take a look at this if you have not already seen it.
Should @Cameron143 and the other a-mills and post-mills (obdurately) think that things are improving and Satan is chained and "things are slowly and surely improving"?

Not so you would notice.

The Vigilant Citizen - Symbols Rule the World
Pics of the Month | The Vigilant Citizen
Movies and TV | The Vigilant Citizen
Sinister Sites | The Vigilant Citizen

 

[Dino246]

One more point that I would like to make if you don't mind.
Aquila and Priscilla were Jews. Given the age-old tenets of that culture, it is unfathomable and inconceivable that the wife would or could ever accede to take a superior authoritative position (or even equally authoritative) part in the marriage or their ministry. In fact they would probably be chastised and excommunicated if they tried it and persisted in it IMO.

Act 18:2
And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

It isn't meaningless that Paul lists Priscilla before Aquila five times of the seven they are mentioned...

Acts 18:18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sisters and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchreae because of a vow he had taken.

Acts 18:19 They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 18:26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 4:19 Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus.

 

[ButterflyJones]

One more point that I would like to make if you don't mind.
Aquila and Priscilla were Jews. Given the age-old tenets of that culture, it is unfathomable and inconceivable that the wife would or could ever accede to take a superior authoritative position (or even equally authoritative) part in the marriage or their ministry. In fact they would probably be chastised and excommunicated if they tried it and persisted in it IMO.

Act 18:2
And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

You might be right.


Except they were Christians. Not ministering in synagogue but in churches established by Paul.

Which is another reason why God said there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, because we are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I don't know why you're trying to impose your view on me. I could see you were set on how you read Paul in your other posts, but I let you be because this is a thread exploring that topic and all views are allowed for all to consider.

I read Paul's words just as they are, so I don't see him recommending women being in positions of authority over men. So I'm going to live by that. If you want to live by your view that he said the opposite, I'm fine with that.

Why can't you leave me to serve God as He reveals His word to me? I trust God with you and how He's teaching you. That's why I'm not motivated to try to change your mind or anyone else's since it's already set.

Besides, shaming doesn't work on me. I know my God and His Word and His opinion is the only one that counts to me. Smh....

No one was attempting to shame you.

You are free to deny Paul's writings as you like.

The quote box you posted with my name on it is your interpolation error that abrogated my actual words. Showing a pattern.
You do the same with Paul's epistles.

 

[HeIsHere]

The role of pastor is greatly overstated in the modern church.

I think this the most important point on this thread.

 

[ButterflyJones]

There isn’t a single verse that prohibits a woman from being a pastor. Perhaps you should read more carefully.


When you consider the ratio of bad male leaders in Scripture to good male leaders, and bad female leaders to good ones, you might change your view. There is no biblical support for the idea that God raises females to leadership only when no suitable men are available. Don’t make doctrine from narrative.

Good points.

The argument that insists Paul did not allow women to preach is false of course.
Yet there are those that will let him to say what he never did, nor practiced. And yet, in the process those arguments ignore the verses that defeats their efforts.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.