Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor
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It's amazing to me how one minute some people say that the end of the world is coming and when I provide a clear logical reason from Israeli history that one of the signs of the end is here....they have a meltdown and say that I'm completely wrong and that everything is just peachy keen fine.
The duplicity of the hypocrisy is somewhat annoying.
The duplicity of the hypocrisy is somewhat annoying.
In all this discussion about women, no one seems to care as to what God ACTUALLY REVEALED through the prophets and apostles. If Christians wish to honestly deal with this subject then Scripture must remain the final authority. So let's look at the Word of God instead of simply going back and forth.
1 TIMOTHY 2: WOMEN ARE FORBIDDEN TO PREACH OR TEACH FOR A REASON
A. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE NOT TO IMITATE WORLDLY WOMEN
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
B. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE TO DISPLAY CHRISTIAN VIRTUES
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
C. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCHES
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
D. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE FORBIDDEN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCHES
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
E. THE REASON WHY GOD HAS GIVEN WOMEN THOSE INSTRUCTIONS
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
THE FIRST HUMAN WHO WAS CREATED WAS A MAN (MALE)
THE FIRST HUMAN WHO WAS DECEIVED AND TRANSGRESSED WAS A WOMAN (FEMALE)
F. WOMEN ARE NOT INFERIOR BUT HAVE A VERY SPECIFIC MINISTRY
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Even though God made Adam responsible for bringing sin and death into the world (since he knowingly disobeyed God), God also made it clear that BECAUSE Eve was deceived, and sinned, women would be barred from spiritual leadership. That is not man-made doctrine, but that is what God says through Paul. Even when Deborah was a civil judge in Israel, she refused to take a leadership role, and insisted that Barak do what he was supposed to do. And Sarah called Abraham "lord". Peter says that is is how spiritual women act.
Now those of you who want to use humanistic reasoning and argue with God, go ahead and do so. Your argument is not with men but with God.
1 TIMOTHY 2: WOMEN ARE FORBIDDEN TO PREACH OR TEACH FOR A REASON
A. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE NOT TO IMITATE WORLDLY WOMEN
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
B. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE TO DISPLAY CHRISTIAN VIRTUES
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
C. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCHES
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
D. CHRISTIAN WOMEN ARE FORBIDDEN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCHES
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
E. THE REASON WHY GOD HAS GIVEN WOMEN THOSE INSTRUCTIONS
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
THE FIRST HUMAN WHO WAS CREATED WAS A MAN (MALE)
THE FIRST HUMAN WHO WAS DECEIVED AND TRANSGRESSED WAS A WOMAN (FEMALE)
F. WOMEN ARE NOT INFERIOR BUT HAVE A VERY SPECIFIC MINISTRY
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Even though God made Adam responsible for bringing sin and death into the world (since he knowingly disobeyed God), God also made it clear that BECAUSE Eve was deceived, and sinned, women would be barred from spiritual leadership. That is not man-made doctrine, but that is what God says through Paul. Even when Deborah was a civil judge in Israel, she refused to take a leadership role, and insisted that Barak do what he was supposed to do. And Sarah called Abraham "lord". Peter says that is is how spiritual women act.
Now those of you who want to use humanistic reasoning and argue with God, go ahead and do so. Your argument is not with men but with God.
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Women are not inferior.
They often live longer than the average man.
Their immune system is normally stronger.
They are designed with more complexity.
They tend to be much better able to multitask, whereas men have to focus upon one task at a time.
Women are prettier than men.
They have more time to influence the children than the father's.
Men protect the women to the point of risking their lives. Anyone ever stand down and fight a murderer or three at once?
Men provide for the women in many ways.
They do the heavy lifting and knuckle busting work.
Men take care of their women .
It's NOT FAIR!
☕😎
They often live longer than the average man.
Their immune system is normally stronger.
They are designed with more complexity.
They tend to be much better able to multitask, whereas men have to focus upon one task at a time.
Women are prettier than men.
They have more time to influence the children than the father's.
Men protect the women to the point of risking their lives. Anyone ever stand down and fight a murderer or three at once?
Men provide for the women in many ways.
They do the heavy lifting and knuckle busting work.
Men take care of their women .
It's NOT FAIR!
☕😎
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1 Peter 3:1-7 does specifically talk about husband and wife roles, so no problem there.
But 1 Timothy 3:8-15 sounds very general that women overall shouldn't teach or have authority over men - not just between husbands and wives. So I don't see that wives can be pastors or other positions over men in the church.
I got saved at 17 and went to Assemblies of God churches beginning in the 1980s. Back then, it was still pretty traditional where I was. I moved away from that church but the last time I checked the website, my old pastor has already retired and a married couple is now running the church, both of which are pastors. My favorite of all time is my second church and they are still traditional, BUT my pastor from that one is about ready to retire so who knows who will take his place? The third one, my pastor there retired and when I was there, the successor was the only pastor. I checked up on the website a few months ago and much to my surprise, the wife is now a pastor too!
We've already discussed cases in which the Lord makes an exception and there are plenty of examples in the Bible. That was already discussed on this thread, but if anyone else has input on that, go ahead.
I think the Bible is pretty clear though. I will wait and see what the fallout from all of this is.
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This is the second time I saw you write that and it's kind of scaring me. So something else worse is coming if the order that God has set keeps being upturned? What do you think is coming which is worse? When I read what you wrote, I was thinking of the churches that have pastors that are transgendered. I think that's pretty bad. Is that what you're talking about?
We all know that the antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple someday and try to take the Lord's position as God and Savior. That's the ultimate usurping of authority.
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I just saw this at Fox news feed
"The Southern Baptist Convention on Tuesday ousted its second-largest congregation — Saddleback Church, the renowned California megachurch founded by pastor and best-selling author Rick Warren — for having a woman pastor.
The vote by the convention's Executive Committee culminates growing tension between the nation's largest Protestant denomination — which officially opposes women as pastors — and a congregation whose story has been one of the biggest church-growth successes of modern times.
The committee cited Saddleback's having "a female teaching pastor functioning in the office of pastor," an allusion to Stacie Wood, wife of the current lead pastor of Saddleback, Andy Wood.
But the controversy began in 2021, when Warren ordained three women as pastors, prompting discussions within the denomination about possibly expelling the megachurch.
Warren retired last year after more than 42 years at Saddleback. He made an emotional speech in June 2022 at the Southern Baptists’ annual convention in Anaheim, standing by his ordination of women. He told delegates who debated the issue, "We have to decide if we will treat each other as allies or adversaries."
"The Southern Baptist Convention on Tuesday ousted its second-largest congregation — Saddleback Church, the renowned California megachurch founded by pastor and best-selling author Rick Warren — for having a woman pastor.
The vote by the convention's Executive Committee culminates growing tension between the nation's largest Protestant denomination — which officially opposes women as pastors — and a congregation whose story has been one of the biggest church-growth successes of modern times.
The committee cited Saddleback's having "a female teaching pastor functioning in the office of pastor," an allusion to Stacie Wood, wife of the current lead pastor of Saddleback, Andy Wood.
But the controversy began in 2021, when Warren ordained three women as pastors, prompting discussions within the denomination about possibly expelling the megachurch.
Warren retired last year after more than 42 years at Saddleback. He made an emotional speech in June 2022 at the Southern Baptists’ annual convention in Anaheim, standing by his ordination of women. He told delegates who debated the issue, "We have to decide if we will treat each other as allies or adversaries."
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Here's one of your examples of a "clear logical reason":
You consider the female prophet Anna to be a portent of bad things for Israel. That directly contradicts the words of Jesus where He quoted Isaiah 61:2 "to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor " and then proclaimed, "This scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
I don't see anyone arguing in this thread that "everything is just peachy keen fine". I don't see anyone (other than you) having a meltdown.
You consider the female prophet Anna to be a portent of bad things for Israel. That directly contradicts the words of Jesus where He quoted Isaiah 61:2 "to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor " and then proclaimed, "This scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
I don't see anyone arguing in this thread that "everything is just peachy keen fine". I don't see anyone (other than you) having a meltdown.
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aul didn't know what he was talking about. Much less what he was doing. Nor did Jesus who told him we are all one in him.
I don't follow you.
I don't pretend to be a male. I am a man. I've had plenty of leadership positions including teaching military advanced hand to hand and combat weapons training. If the enemy has a weapon, that becomes your weapon that they are offering to use upon them if necessary to stop the threat. A week ago, I spoke to a friend about my background and the Lord provided a foolish man to take a pointed mattock to my door when he couldn't kick it in or pry it open with shovels. I am qualified as a man to stop such tasks.
I said that" it wasn't fair" to point out that women have strengths in many areas that are never considered. However men and women are different. They are designed to provide different roles. Women have strengths, but in regards to physical musculature, they are considered the weaker vessels. They do not qualify to act in dominant leadership roles over groups of men in the churches. They can preach however and should. I'm not justifying feminist liberal theology. Generally speaking, women have tendencies that resemble our grandmother Eve. She was deceived. It often breaks my heart when I see a woman scammed for a fortune of unnecessary work by unscrupulous tradesmen. Men do too, but less often.
BTW, I am qualified to start churches and be an evangelist, however single men are not qualified for the pastorate. A "man" does not make one necessarily qualified for a pastorate. There are other requirements.
I don't pretend to be a male. I am a man. I've had plenty of leadership positions including teaching military advanced hand to hand and combat weapons training. If the enemy has a weapon, that becomes your weapon that they are offering to use upon them if necessary to stop the threat. A week ago, I spoke to a friend about my background and the Lord provided a foolish man to take a pointed mattock to my door when he couldn't kick it in or pry it open with shovels. I am qualified as a man to stop such tasks.
I said that" it wasn't fair" to point out that women have strengths in many areas that are never considered. However men and women are different. They are designed to provide different roles. Women have strengths, but in regards to physical musculature, they are considered the weaker vessels. They do not qualify to act in dominant leadership roles over groups of men in the churches. They can preach however and should. I'm not justifying feminist liberal theology. Generally speaking, women have tendencies that resemble our grandmother Eve. She was deceived. It often breaks my heart when I see a woman scammed for a fortune of unnecessary work by unscrupulous tradesmen. Men do too, but less often.
BTW, I am qualified to start churches and be an evangelist, however single men are not qualified for the pastorate. A "man" does not make one necessarily qualified for a pastorate. There are other requirements.
It gets discussed often in CC.
Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.
I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.
Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"
Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.
Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.
I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.
Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"
Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.
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