Salvation is for the Whole World
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Dear friend... First of all, I want you to know that in the last days men will laugh at the truth.
They will follow their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “He promised to come again. Where
is He? Since our early fathers died, everything is the same from the beginning of the world.”
5 But they want to forget that God spoke and the heavens were made long ago. The earth
was made out of water and water was all around it. 6 Long ago the earth was covered with
water and it was destroyed. 7 But the heaven we see now and the earth we live on now have
been kept by His word. They will be kept until they are to be destroyed by fire. They will be
kept until the day men stand before God and sinners will be destroyed. from 2 Peter 3.
They will follow their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “He promised to come again. Where
is He? Since our early fathers died, everything is the same from the beginning of the world.”
5 But they want to forget that God spoke and the heavens were made long ago. The earth
was made out of water and water was all around it. 6 Long ago the earth was covered with
water and it was destroyed. 7 But the heaven we see now and the earth we live on now have
been kept by His word. They will be kept until they are to be destroyed by fire. They will be
kept until the day men stand before God and sinners will be destroyed. from 2 Peter 3.
I think the term first-born is referring to Christ as the God-man - the firs of many brethren that were reconciled to the Father, but not because He was created as God.
[Rom 8:29 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[Rom 8:29 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Sorry, not sure I entirely understand that. But I can't see how this world can be the one that He loves if He is going to destroy it. Since there are two spoken of in the Bible, the eternal one must therefore be the one of His love. We can know this because the one to come, as we are told, is the one Christ will reign in. Only those saved (the elect) will reside there with Him.
Sorry, should have also included these in my prior reply to you:
[Col 1:15, 18 KJV]
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: ...
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
[Col 1:15, 18 KJV]
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: ...
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
“Who were the many as received him?”
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( power to become sons of God )
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:38-41
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( power to become sons of God )
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:38-41
A particularly important text for understanding this phrase is Psalm 89:27: “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” This verse appears in a section of the psalm speaking of Yahweh’s covenant with David. It is perfectly clear from the biblical accounts of David that he was not physically the firstborn of his family. In fact, he was the youngest of his brothers. This demonstrates that the term “firstborn” may be used in a figurative manner.
Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.
Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.
Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).
Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.
Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.
Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.
Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).
Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.
Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
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Do you think that the God the Son was created/born? Jesus Christ, to satisfy His role as Saviour, became flesh and by His death and resurrection thereby became the firstborn of the dead. He was the first to be reborn but, as far as I know, only on the behalf of "humans". The reason for coming to this world was to reconcile man to God, but only man.
In reading Col 1 15:16 I don't find it to be saying that He was the firstborn "for all creation", but instead, "over all creation" - meaning that He became the Lord of the creation, not its Saviour. That, I believe, is an important distinction.
If the Son was brought into existence and was not always existing (as I understand you to be saying), it would then have to mean that Christ is not God because He would have been created, however, a created being cannot be God because God by definition, is eternal.
[Col 1:18 NIV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
[Col 1:15 NIV] 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
In reading Col 1 15:16 I don't find it to be saying that He was the firstborn "for all creation", but instead, "over all creation" - meaning that He became the Lord of the creation, not its Saviour. That, I believe, is an important distinction.
If the Son was brought into existence and was not always existing (as I understand you to be saying), it would then have to mean that Christ is not God because He would have been created, however, a created being cannot be God because God by definition, is eternal.
[Col 1:18 NIV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
[Col 1:15 NIV] 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
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Thanks for the explanation, and I'm definitely not looking to disagree with you and actually agree with some of what you've said above, but nevertheless would like to reconcile and understand the "God so loved the world" of John 3:16, which relates to 3:17's " the world through him might be saved". I feel this is critical to know because so much hangs on its intent. Regardless of whether one or the other of us is correct, or if in some way we both are, I think it could be an extremely beneficial dialogue to have.
So, if I understand your point of view correctly, I believe the crux of our different perceptions, comes down to what is to happen to this world, as that will be the determinant of which world it was that "God so loved", as represented by John 3:16. Personally, I find it hard to conceive how Jesus's offering would have been expended upon a world that is to be temporal, destroyed, and therefore not eternal, because if it was then his offering must be judged as a failure, which of course, it was not. Instead, anything covered under His offering was by that made eternal.
If I may ask, how would you interpret the following verses regarding the longevity of this current world? It seems to me that
if it is to be destroyed - which is what these verses seem to indicate - then the world that "God so loved" cannot be this one and must be towards another eternal world - the world that is to come - which would then dramatically change the assumptions that most make regarding the intent of 3:16 and 3:17.
[Isa 65:17 KJV] 17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[2Pe 3:10,11 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
[Isa 34:4 KJV] 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
So, if I understand your point of view correctly, I believe the crux of our different perceptions, comes down to what is to happen to this world, as that will be the determinant of which world it was that "God so loved", as represented by John 3:16. Personally, I find it hard to conceive how Jesus's offering would have been expended upon a world that is to be temporal, destroyed, and therefore not eternal, because if it was then his offering must be judged as a failure, which of course, it was not. Instead, anything covered under His offering was by that made eternal.
If I may ask, how would you interpret the following verses regarding the longevity of this current world? It seems to me that
if it is to be destroyed - which is what these verses seem to indicate - then the world that "God so loved" cannot be this one and must be towards another eternal world - the world that is to come - which would then dramatically change the assumptions that most make regarding the intent of 3:16 and 3:17.
[Isa 65:17 KJV] 17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[2Pe 3:10,11 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
[Isa 34:4 KJV] 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.