Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[HeIsHere]

I think you missed the point there. But what ever.

I got the point actually.

Then God Elected those He chose to Salvation.

For all your personal study you have missed the truth completely if this is what you believe.^^^^

This is not a benign doctrine.

 

[Snacks]

Election pertains to the Church, not the multitudes of the lost and dying that we are commissioned to reach out to and point to that fountain rich and free which is available to whosoever will come and drink.

The Great Commission 🙏❤️

 

[Snacks]

Just out of curiosity...what was Calvin's understanding of total depravity?

Democrat politicians.
Now THAT’s total depravity. 😊

 

[HeIsHere]

Your really quite an unpleasant fellow - are you not? Do you think these kind of rants are supposed to accomplish something. Do you think the Lord is looking down on you with a smile, when you act this way?

And for arguments sake, do you not think you will suffer great loss of reward, if you find out that John Calvin was right and so, Polycarp, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Gill, Jonathan Edwards or Arthur Pink?

Do you think God is pleased by people who promote lies about Him?

Then God Elected those He chose to Salvation.

I think changing truth of the character of God is the most egregious offense of all.

Btw they weren't right, just schooled in a particularly bad interpretation started by Augustine.

 

[oyster67]

It is God’s desire that everyone be saved, but not everyone is saved. How’s that possible if God’s will prevails?

Another way of putting it is "God's sovereign will was to give man a choice." He desires fellowship with those who chose to come, not with prefabricated frankensteins who are pre-slotted to one fate or another. Who would want a wife like that?

 

[HeIsHere]

The natural man cannot receive the things of God because he believes them to be foolishness. This is because of his sinful state. It prevents him from hearing the Gospel message.

This interpretation does not work in the light of other scripture. It is not what Paul is saying at all.

See, this is one of those bad interpretations that just gets repeated and repeated and people believe it is true.

I could explain it to you but you what have to dismiss it because it pretty much destroys the whole God regenerates before faith false teaching.

Very sad.

 

[HeIsHere]

Another way of putting it is "God's sovereign will was to give man a choice." He desires fellowship with those who chose to come, not with prefabricated frankensteins who are pre-slotted to one fate or another. Who would want a wife like that?

Exactly.

What a twisted view of God's sovereignty is promoted in this doctrine.

 

[oyster67]

The natural man cannot receive the things of God because he believes them to be foolishness. This is because of his sinful state. It prevents him from hearing the Gospel message.

The natural man chooses to believe that they are foolishness. This is because of His sinful state. It does not prevent Him from hearing the Gospel. This is clearly delineated in the Scriptures...
Romans 1:
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

See how that works?

 

[Snacks]

This interpretation does not work in the light of other scripture. It is not what Paul is saying at all.

See, this is one of those bad interpretations that just gets repeated and repeated and people believe it is true.

I could explain it to you but you what have to dismiss it because it pretty much destroys the whole God regenerates before faith false teaching.

Very sad.

We have laws and codes which mandate products must meet certain safety standards. Automobile manufacturers are not allowed to deliberately build vehicles that are unsafe and don’t work. Suffice it to say God holds Himself to even greater standards in that He doesn’t create certain people for damnation. 1 Timothy 2 proves that.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Another way of putting it is "God's sovereign will was to give man a choice." He desires fellowship with those who chose to come, not with prefabricated frankensteins who are pre-slotted to one fate or another. Who would want a wife like that?

it all fits with Gods love

You can not have a true relationship without free will. Its impossible

 

[Underwhosewings]

There is no ground for Satan, when we choose to serve God.
So satan is accusing Gods people, day and night.
See how important it is that it’s completely our will and choice to follow God and serve Him.
Satan is accusing God of
“running the show,”
“Doth Job fear God for nought?”
So God gives Satan permission to destroy almost everything Job had.
But Job offered up his words of worship to God.
“fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,”
So that might help some to understand why sometimes trials come our way and our faith is tested.
It’s because Satan is up there trying to accuse us of following God just to get all the blessings.
like Job said…
the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Revelation 12:9-10 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Job 1:6-12,20-22 KJV
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[8] And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[12] And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
[20] Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
[22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Your wrong my friend, You know absolutely nothing ob out Gods sovereignty or his love.

A parent who is soverign has the right to allow their kids to chose. It does not take away from their soverignty or their authority.

There is no ground for Satan, when we choose to serve God.
So satan is accusing Gods people, day and night.
See how important it is that it’s completely our will and choice to follow God and serve Him.
Satan is accusing God of
“running the show,”
“Doth Job fear God for nought?”
So God gives Satan permission to destroy almost everything Job had.
But Job offered up his words of worship to God.
“fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,”
So that might help some to understand why sometimes trials come our way and our faith is tested.
It’s because Satan is up there trying to accuse us of following God just to get all the blessings.
like Job said…
the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Revelation 12:9-10 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Job 1:6-12,20-22 KJV
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[8] And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[12] And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
[20] Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
[22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

 

[HeIsHere]

We have laws and codes which mandate products must meet certain safety standards. Automobile manufacturers are not allowed to deliberately build vehicles that are unsafe and don’t work. Suffice it to say God holds Himself to even greater standards in that He doesn’t create certain people for damnation. 1 Timothy 2 proves that.

Agree.

"God choose me, and forced His Grace upon me, because I cannot understand the simple Gospel, I am so humbled," they proclaim.

So others are denied so the chosen can stay humble. Quite ridiculous.

 

[Snacks]

Agree.

"God choose me, and forced His Grace upon me, because I cannot understand the simple Gospel, I am so humbled," they proclaim.

So others are denied so the chosen can stay humble. Quite ridiculous.

If they actually were humble they wouldn’t be so pathetic.

 

[Cameron143]

It is God’s desire that everyone be saved, but not everyone is saved. How’s that possible if God’s will prevails?

That's definitely the right question. You must have had something high in protein for breakfast.

 

[Cameron143]

Another way of putting it is "God's sovereign will was to give man a choice." He desires fellowship with those who chose to come, not with prefabricated frankensteins who are pre-slotted to one fate or another. Who would want a wife like that?

Are you married? Most men I know would love to have a wife that agreed with them just half the time.

 

[Cameron143]

Agree.

"God choose me, and forced His Grace upon me, because I cannot understand the simple Gospel, I am so humbled," they proclaim.

So others are denied so the chosen can stay humble. Quite ridiculous.

Would you be surprised to learn that Calvin himself would agree with you?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is God’s desire that everyone be saved, but not everyone is saved. How’s that possible if God’s will prevails?

Here's something I posted in the past:

[quoting old post]



Luke 7:29-30 -29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn ] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."


--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").

The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.


From Bible Hub [quoting]:

Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

HELPS Word-studies

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]


[and]

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).

1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).

[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]

[end quotes from BibleHub]



They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.

One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that's to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)."
But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.


[end quoting old post]




Thoughts?

 

[Magenta]

Are you married? Most men I know would love to have a wife that agreed with them just half the time.

If not more -

 

[cv5]

Here's something I posted in the past:

[quoting old post]



Luke 7:29-30 -29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn ] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."


--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").

The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.


From Bible Hub [quoting]:

Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

HELPS Word-studies

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]


[and]

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).

1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).

[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]

[end quotes from BibleHub]



They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.

One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that's to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)."
But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.


[end quoting old post]




Thoughts?

Maybe some counsel is immutable and some is not?

Heb 6:17
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, G1012 confirmed it by an oath:

 

[Cameron143]

Here's something I posted in the past:

[quoting old post]



Luke 7:29-30 -29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn ] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."


--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").

The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.


From Bible Hub [quoting]:

Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

HELPS Word-studies

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]


[and]

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).

1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).

[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]

[end quotes from BibleHub]



They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.

One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that's to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)."
But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.


[end quoting old post]




Thoughts?

It's an excellent point because more accurately sovereignty is not about forcing something on someone but being able to do whatever you please and no one or no thing can inhibit you in doing so. That is what God states in Daniel 4:35...He does His will among the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none shall stay His hand...

Man's natural propensity against God in a fallen state merely works against him.

It isn't that God couldn't force people to believe, He just chooses to woo them instead.

There is no reason to make it about calvinism or freewill. The labels have taken a pejorative connotation and inflame passions that withheld might bring people together.