Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
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I agree with what you said here. We must teach the Word of God to others but it must be taught in Truth and Power.
However, as to God moving first - in a persons life - we must go to a point that is before the Gospel teaching.
The natural man cannot receive the things of God because he believes them to be foolishness. This is because of his sinful state. It prevents him from hearing the Gospel message.
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mark 4:12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
1Co_1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumbling block, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1Co_2:14 Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
In the Old Testament, Proverbs says that God is the one who gives the ability to hear and see:
Prov. 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, Jehovah hath made even both of them.
This is accomplished through the new birth.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you are hearing the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.
This is the same act mentioned in these Scriptures:
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
After this, a person will hear the Gospel message. This is God moving first in a person.
However, as to God moving first - in a persons life - we must go to a point that is before the Gospel teaching.
The natural man cannot receive the things of God because he believes them to be foolishness. This is because of his sinful state. It prevents him from hearing the Gospel message.
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mark 4:12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
1Co_1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumbling block, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1Co_2:14 Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
In the Old Testament, Proverbs says that God is the one who gives the ability to hear and see:
Prov. 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, Jehovah hath made even both of them.
This is accomplished through the new birth.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you are hearing the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.
This is the same act mentioned in these Scriptures:
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
After this, a person will hear the Gospel message. This is God moving first in a person.
Do you really think that what John Calvin said or didn't say caused a dip in those being saved? That is incredibly humanistic and shows little faith in God accomplishing His task. It doesn't matter what you say or I say, those that are going to be saved will be saved. You and I can't prevent God's purpose from standing. Don't you understand that?
Hey there my friend. I am not an expert on John Calvin but I do know that he believed in total depravity. Which I believe carried the idea way too far. Mankind after the fall was not "totally" depraved. He was capable of doing somethings that might be classified as good. For example, he might sacrifice himself to save others in times of crisis.
I believe the proper understanding should have been "spiritual depravity". Scripture states in many different areas, that the natural man can not discern spiritual things. They are foolishness to the natural mind. Therefore, we can draw from those Scriptures, that mankind, after the fall, could not understand spiritual things in his natural state.
I believe the proper understanding should have been "spiritual depravity". Scripture states in many different areas, that the natural man can not discern spiritual things. They are foolishness to the natural mind. Therefore, we can draw from those Scriptures, that mankind, after the fall, could not understand spiritual things in his natural state.
I appreciate the response. I do know what Calvin understood.
He believed the entire person had been corrupted--his mind, heart, and will. But he didn't believe they weren't still able to be employed or that man himself was totally corrupt. The total part was meant to include the whole of his being not to the uttermost rendering man incapable of their use.
I also understand why he believed this was so. If you read the response of the people in Acts 2 to Peter's sermon it says...when they heard this--the mind--they were pricked in the heart--the heart--men and brethren, what shall we do?--the will. God's answer to their condition was to the entirety of the individual.
Paul wrote of gentile believers was that they obeyed--the will--from the heart--the heart--that form of doctrine--the mind--which was delivered...
Calvin never believed man himself was totally depraved but that every aspect of man was affected by sin.
What someone makes of the ideas of Calvin concerns me little. But criticism of someone's ideas should accurately reflect what the person actually believed. According to some people's understanding of total depravity, Calvin himself doesn't actually qualify as a Calvinist.
The same could be said of other doctrine ascribed to him.
He believed the entire person had been corrupted--his mind, heart, and will. But he didn't believe they weren't still able to be employed or that man himself was totally corrupt. The total part was meant to include the whole of his being not to the uttermost rendering man incapable of their use.
I also understand why he believed this was so. If you read the response of the people in Acts 2 to Peter's sermon it says...when they heard this--the mind--they were pricked in the heart--the heart--men and brethren, what shall we do?--the will. God's answer to their condition was to the entirety of the individual.
Paul wrote of gentile believers was that they obeyed--the will--from the heart--the heart--that form of doctrine--the mind--which was delivered...
Calvin never believed man himself was totally depraved but that every aspect of man was affected by sin.
What someone makes of the ideas of Calvin concerns me little. But criticism of someone's ideas should accurately reflect what the person actually believed. According to some people's understanding of total depravity, Calvin himself doesn't actually qualify as a Calvinist.
The same could be said of other doctrine ascribed to him.
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It isn't prophecy. The reason these discussions turn out the same way as they always do, as you said, is likely because you repeat the same errant rhetoric as always.
Not at all interested in learning proper Exegesis. Not mature enough to admit you're wrong. Not at all interested in the actual respectful discourse that is suppose to be within the scope of Apologetics.
Even as a new member it becomes obvious after a short while. Your interest is to see how long someone will naively insure you continue to have a blast.
My deepest sympathies to those who do not yet realize that.
My eternal gratitude to Holy Spirit for the insight he provided so that have. 🙏😔Amen.
Not at all interested in learning proper Exegesis. Not mature enough to admit you're wrong. Not at all interested in the actual respectful discourse that is suppose to be within the scope of Apologetics.
Even as a new member it becomes obvious after a short while. Your interest is to see how long someone will naively insure you continue to have a blast.
My deepest sympathies to those who do not yet realize that.
My eternal gratitude to Holy Spirit for the insight he provided so that have. 🙏😔Amen.
I do not believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the gospel. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the mystery, the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:6-7) which was kept secret ... hid in God ... until God revealed it to Paul.
I understand that is what you believe. I don't hold to that understanding.
to me it appears you've got a person born again in order to hear the Gospel message through which the person is born again.
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I understand that is what you believe. I don't hold to that understanding.
to me it appears you've got a person born again in order to hear the Gospel message through which the person is born again.
.
There is also Molinism -
I think my first post about Molinism here was on September 7th, 2018 - At that time I said:
Molinists argue that God perfectly accomplishes his will in the lives of genuinely free creatures through the use of His omniscience. I have not looked into Molinism very extensively, but they seem to have a balanced approach with some very learned adherents.
I think my first post about Molinism here was on September 7th, 2018 -
At that time I said:Molinists argue that God perfectly accomplishes his will in the lives of genuinely free creatures through the use of His omniscience. I have not looked into Molinism very extensively, but they seem to have a balanced approach with some very learned adherents.
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did God have a plan for salvation before time began? yes.
Did he know this plan he created the heavens and the earth and placed adam there KNOWING adam would freely chose to rebell against him? yes
Is this God moving first?? Yes I agree
it is HOW and WHY he chose that is in contention.
I believe Christ chose then that he would set aside all he has and come to earth as the son of man, and he would be lifted up himself on a cross.. that whoever believes will not die, but has eternal life
That was his plan all along..
Did he know this plan he created the heavens and the earth and placed adam there KNOWING adam would freely chose to rebell against him? yes
Is this God moving first?? Yes I agree
it is HOW and WHY he chose that is in contention.
I believe Christ chose then that he would set aside all he has and come to earth as the son of man, and he would be lifted up himself on a cross.. that whoever believes will not die, but has eternal life
That was his plan all along..
well here we have it
I am not interested in learning
I am not mature enough
I am not I respond the same errant rhetoric
lol my friend.
What yuo have just proved is the reason these conversations always end the way they do. People become arrogant. Self righteous. Think they know it all and anyone who disagrees with them is satan himself.
I keep praying one day someone will see their arrogance, their self righteous attitude. Their bearing false witness. and try to look deep inside and ask themselves why they have to attack someone else. and not just respond to what they are saying and have a normal conversation.
Sadly, My prayers keep going unanswered.
Go back and look at the Calvinist debate in this chatroom. You can go back quite a while. And you will see time after time, debates end up (not just with me) exactly the way you just did. It does not matter who it is.
Sadly, I have only known one true Brother in christ. a devout calvinist @Grandpa who even though we get into discussions from time to time, Never attack each other. and end up agreeing to disagree. knowing one day we will see each other in heaven, and most likely laugh about the debate itself..
I am not interested in learning
I am not mature enough
I am not I respond the same errant rhetoric
lol my friend.
What yuo have just proved is the reason these conversations always end the way they do. People become arrogant. Self righteous. Think they know it all and anyone who disagrees with them is satan himself.
I keep praying one day someone will see their arrogance, their self righteous attitude. Their bearing false witness. and try to look deep inside and ask themselves why they have to attack someone else. and not just respond to what they are saying and have a normal conversation.
Sadly, My prayers keep going unanswered.
Go back and look at the Calvinist debate in this chatroom. You can go back quite a while. And you will see time after time, debates end up (not just with me) exactly the way you just did. It does not matter who it is.
Sadly, I have only known one true Brother in christ. a devout calvinist @Grandpa who even though we get into discussions from time to time, Never attack each other. and end up agreeing to disagree. knowing one day we will see each other in heaven, and most likely laugh about the debate itself..
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Ah thank you. Thank you for the scripture which proves that it is through justification. or the forgiveness of sin in which we are quickened (made alive)
justification (by faith) is the means by which we are made alive, as the penalty of sin is removed, having been redeemed by the blood of the lamb..
justification (by faith) is the means by which we are made alive, as the penalty of sin is removed, having been redeemed by the blood of the lamb..
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