Doctrine of Unconditional Election

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

Mar 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luk 13:34
'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her, how often did I will to gather together thy children, as a hen her brood under the wings, and ye did not will.

Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would G2309 I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would G2309 not!

G2309 - thelō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Outline of Biblical Usage

to will, have in mind, intend
1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish
3. to love
  1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
4. to take delight in, have pleasure

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

I never said that did I?

BTW....I DO believe in the unassailable doctrine of God's election/predestination. Just as much as I believe in God's sincere plea for repentance as it relates to human choice, and His attributes of love, mercy, longsuffering, grace, patience and pity.

Why would anyone think that it must be one or the other?
Furthermore, why would anyone declare that they absolutely know the machinations of it all and how exactly this supposed paradoxical entanglement works according to the will of God in time and eternity?

KJV Search Results for "election" (blueletterbible.org)
KJV Search Results for "elect" (blueletterbible.org)
KJV Search Results for "elected" (blueletterbible.org)
KJV Search Results for "predestinated" (blueletterbible.org)

Beckie · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

YUP i expected more from you, You claim to have the upper spiritual knowledge. How about showing the Grace extended to you to to others.

Do you believe the Scriptures today the same as you did when you first started studying them? Have you not grown in your understanding?
Are you going to answer the question ?

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

cv5 said:

Because it is simple. I am unable to comprehend complicated. And it wasn't you that I was had in mind.
However, it must be of one or the other because each is the antithesis of the other and only one can be correct.
I say that salvation must be by grace alone and that means in every way possible with no contribution whatsoever from its recipient,
otherwise, it couldn't be a gift.

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

Beckie said:

YUP i expected more from you, You claim to have the upper spiritual knowledge. How about showing the Grace extended to you to to others.

Do you believe the Scriptures today the same as you did when you first started studying them? Have you not grown in your understanding?
Are you going to answer the question ?

No, yes, and yes and I just did.

Beckie · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

Thanks ! we dont all learn at the same pace do we?
No, yes, yes, ! Yup me too....... the process took years for me and hope and pray i am still learning.

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

Beckie said:

YUP i expected more from you, You claim to have the upper spiritual knowledge. How about showing the Grace extended to you to to others.

Do you believe the Scriptures today the same as you did when you first started studying them? Have you not grown in your understanding?
Are you going to answer the question ?

Yeah, you're correct - I should have.

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

You just better make sure you have not rejected his gospel before you judge others

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

I haven't rejected His Gospel, and it sounds like he judged me.

"when you have to stand before God and answer for your mutilation of the Gospel of Salvation."

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

Only in that teensy weensy teeny tiny feeble fragile mind or yours.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that God can and does reconcile these disparate and seemingly paradoxical dilemmas and matters with perfect wisdom and justice. Consequently I rest easy knowing God's grace is not trammeled by the foolishness of men.

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

Does this complicate things for you?

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Pro 7:15
Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

Mat 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

2Ch 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Hos 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

those where his words and not yours? if so forgive me

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

No problem and yes, those were his words not mine.

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

cv5 said:

No, it doesn't.

Heb 11:6 - True faith is given as a gift as a fruit of the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again.

Pro 7:15 - don't know why you chose this verse - it is speaking about a harlot - or from a spiritual perspective, a false gospel.

Mat 13:44 - That he had the "joy thereof" is symbolic that he was saved. This verse clarify further.

[Phl 3:7 KJV]
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

2 CH 7:14 - speaking of the nation of Israel under Solomon. It was another warning that God gave to them. They refused to heed it
because they were blind. The below verses tell us the result of that blindness, which is that God divorced Israel. That
blindness has been upon all of the unsaved throughout time.

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and
given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Hos 5:15 - So, did they "seek Him"? No, not until Christ, but then not for the nation of Israel, for spiritual Israel.

rogerg · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

Nevertheless, I did not handle it well. Nothing like a discussion of salvation to get
one's adrenaline up and pumping.

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 28, 2023

rogerg said:

Been there myself.. sometimes I have to just stop responding to certain people

brightfame52 · Mar 4, 2023

Paul teaches clearly that Election, which is a ground from an Eternal perspective, of Salvation by Grace, is unconditional, observe in quoting Gospel writer Moreno Dal Bello:

Election "...is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Rom. 9:16). “‘of him that runneth’ is a metaphor taken from the foot-races as Paul may very possibly have seen them practised at Corinth. (see 1 Cor. 9:24,26; Gal. 2:2; 5:7; Phil. 2:16; 3:14). The meaning is that the prize does not depend on human will or human effort, but on the grace of God. By ‘willeth’ he means the thought and strenuously active endeavour of heart, and by ‘runneth’, good works, to neither of which he gives the praise, but only to the mercy of God. The idea is of one actively moving in the path of right. His energy may tempt him to think that he originated the motion; but he did not. It depends not on the striving and urgent endeavour of man, but on the will of the merciful God. Not that human willing and running are illusions, but they are not the cause of mercy. They follow it, but they are not the cause of it. Its origin is not of them. The experience of God’s mercy does not depend on man’s resolve or effort, but on God’s merciful act (see 1 Cor. 9:24 ff.).This, of course, merely repeats Romans 9:12,13, buttressing the principle of God’s Sovereign freedom in the exercise of mercy by reference to His own word in Exodus 33:19: ‘And He said, I will make all My goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy’”. Salvation by grace and mercy means, “God is laid under no obligation by a human will, or a human work”. Salvation is not God responding to a human will, or human work, salvation is God acting according to His will by His grace and mercy in order to save His people from their sins. If election is not of the will of man, if man cannot, and so, does not elect himself to be saved via his free will and works, then it is clearly not conditioned or reliant upon man, not on works, but on grace alone. It is not man who makes the first move, for election and salvation would then not be according to God's will and grace, but a man's will and works. It would no longer be a gift but a reward, and man would have reason to boast. The fact that there is no boasting which a man can engage in, is a testament to the fact that prior to being made alive a man is lifeless and hopeless in sins.

brightfame52 · Mar 10, 2023

Many oppose election and state that its not unto Salvation, but only to service, which is ridiculous. A key passage on election shows how election of God is unto Salvation, Justification Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Within this passage Paul shows us one of the purposes why God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world:

" that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Notice the words "without blame" What is it to be without blame ?

The words mean:

without blemish
1. as a sacrifice without spot or blemish
morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable,

without rebuke, without fault,

Basically its to be perfectly righteous, guilt free !

This purpose is fulfilled in the death of Christ for us, by which by it we are perfected forever Heb 10:14

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

His Death for the Chosen speaks to both their sanctification[ being holy] and Justification being made perfectly righteous and without blame before God in Love.

So Election is unto Salvation, being made righteous, blameless, holy are Salvation Blessings ! 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

NOV25 · Mar 10, 2023

rogerg said:

You’re fine. Pointing out someone’s ignorance on a topic isn’t name-calling, technically 😆

brightfame52 · Mar 25, 2023

Is there a corporate election ?

Yes it is, the totality of the Body of Christ, men and women chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, all chosen together at the same time. For the word corporate simply means:

of, for, or belonging to a corporation or corporations: a corporate executive; She considers the new federal subsidy just corporate welfare.
forming a corporation.
pertaining to a united group, as of persons :the corporate good.
united or combined into one. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/corporate

This corporate election is signified here in Ps 139 :16

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

All my members is a corporate idea in union to one body.

Also 1 Cor 12:12

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

However a many membered corporation is composed of specific individuals, one member each 1 Cor 12:18

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

So we cant talk about an corporate election without discussing and including an Individual election. When the members names are written in the book, it was one members name at a time Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Lk 10:20

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Now individual election refers to God's unconditionally choosing in eternity past specific individuals to receive saving grace both in eternity and in time 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 5

Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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