"School students 'forced' to listen to the Gospel" ???

[ButterflyJones]

I was somewhat irritated by this thread being necroed until I got here.


The outrage is in plenty of other threads. I didn't call for outrage, by the way... but you know what, maybe I should have.

I made my points early on in the thread.

1) You can't be trying to force-feed the gospel to people.
2) You especially cannot use government to force-feed any religion.

Like I said if the shoe was on the other foot, and they forced your kids to go into an Islamic service- you know that's a gross violation of their rights and your rights as a parent as well. We obviously want other religions to respect the church and state division, and we want government to respect the church and state division... and it's hypocrisy when we make an exception for ourselves, and say "it's okay when I do it".

I believe you misunderstood my post.

 

[Smoke]

Yep, since we really don't have all the facts lets compare them to Nazis. Gassing Jews during the holocaust is certainly comparable to having to sit through a speaker you disagree with.

I think the point went over your head. It's not comparing their violations, it's comparing their justification for violating someone's rights. You tried making a point of teachers were told there is an assembly and so they took the students to the assembly and held students who didn't want to view it against their will. I'm saying, that doesn't excuse anything... They should know what the first amendment is.

Castigate means to severely reprimand. No one has suggested castration.

Sincerely laughing at this. My mistake as I was the one that misread the word.

No one was forced to worship some God they didn't believe in. This wasn't a speaker talking about Climate change or gender fluidity.

No one is making the case they were forced to worship a God. Enough with the paper tigers. They asked to leave but were denied and held against their will at a service. The school district even acknowledged the violation so I'm not sure what you're arguing other than it's not a big deal to violate someone's civil rights.

The easy way is very rarely the narrow way that leads to life.

I agree. It's easy to just sit and conform to people in a position of power and authority when their rights are clearly being violated... I'm glad they spoke out about this.

Now then, if we want to discuss alternatives so this doesn't happen... Educating the educators on fundamental and civil liberties will have a greater impact. If someone wants to put their kid in a private school where they are allowed to things like this, then so be it. Nevertheless, this was a public school so it's moot.

 

[Smoke]

It was voluntary with a sign up sheet but two teachers misunderstood and brought their entire class.

Where's the outrage when tranny people give talks at a school assembly? Working to convince impressionable minds their agenda is the new normal.

Or demon lookalikes read to children at the local public library? Where's the outrage?

But bring Christ to school and it's an outrage?
Lord, how far we've fallen.

Believe me, if there was a tranny talking about gender is a social construct and means something differently than sex and some Christian students didn't want to stay at that assembly but teachers held them there against their will... IT WOULD be the top story on Fox News, AON, Newsmax, etc... As it should.

It doesn't matter your political ideology. Everyone, left and right, have fundamental civil rights that public schools/teachers DO NOT have the right to violate. As ZNP says, ignorance isn't an excuse (even though he excuses the teachers).

If you're a teacher and want to make students do things they don't want, get a job at a private school where some of those things are allowed.

 

[ZNP]

No one is making the case they were forced to worship a God. Enough with the paper tigers. They asked to leave but were denied and held against their will at a service. The school district even acknowledged the violation so I'm not sure what you're arguing other than it's not a big deal to violate someone's civil rights.

Kids ask to leave every assembly. This is a paper tiger. Teachers are responsible for the supervision of these children. If you don't want them supervising your kids then pull them. Two teachers made a small error that happens every single year in every single school, but no one makes a big deal about this if it was any other guest speaker.

I agree. It's easy to just sit and conform to people in a position of power and authority when their rights are clearly being violated... I'm glad they spoke out about this.

Now then, if we want to discuss alternatives so this doesn't happen... Educating the educators on fundamental and civil liberties will have a greater impact. If someone wants to put their kid in a private school where they are allowed to things like this, then so be it. Nevertheless, this was a public school so it's moot.

That is my point. In the public school they feel that their rights are violated if a Christian speaks to them. Now if a trans, or gay or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist speaks then it is a wonderful thing. Wake up, if you are a Christian you are not welcome in the public school. The claim that their rights were violated is absurd. Has anyone stopped them from speaking? No, so 1st Amendment not violated. Has anyone said that they don't have the freedom to worship as they please? No. Total bogus argument. What has really happened is they have made it abundantly clear that Christians are not welcome.

Luke 9:5 And as many as receive you not, when ye depart from that city, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Therefore leave the public school

Luke 10:11 Even the dust from your city, that cleaveth to our feet, we wipe off against you: nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh.

 

[ZNP]

It doesn't matter your political ideology. Everyone, left and right, have fundamental civil rights that public schools/teachers DO NOT have the right to violate. As ZNP says, ignorance isn't an excuse (even though he excuses the teachers).

My position has been consistent, based on what we have been told the two teachers made a mistake, however, I also feel we have not been told the whole story. At the very least the two teachers should be able to speak if they have anything to add. Therefore your claim that I am making excuses for them is false. Some would say a lie, but that would imply malicious intent.

Now if the cancel culture wants to attack and fire every teacher that makes a mistake, go ahead. You will bite and devour one another and there will not be a single teacher left standing after twenty years.

 

[Smoke]

Kids ask to leave every assembly. This is a paper tiger. Teachers are responsible for the supervision of these children. If you don't want them supervising your kids then pull them. Two teachers made a small error that happens every single year in every single school, but no one makes a big deal about this if it was any other guest speaker.

Kids ask to leave every assembly doesn't mean that forcing kids to attend them are equivalent to forcing them to remain at a voluntary religious service. Once again, you're overlooking the fact that the teacher should have known the first amendment. Do you deny that everyone, ESPECIALLY TEACHERS, should know the first amendment?

However, I'm pleased to hear you actually admit the teachers were in error, even though you poured 50 tons of sugar on it and attempt to justify it.

That is my point. In the public school they feel that their rights are violated if a Christian speaks to them. Now if a trans, or gay or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist speaks then it is a wonderful thing. Wake up, if you are a Christian you are not welcome in the public school. The claim that their rights were violated is absurd. Has anyone stopped them from speaking? No, so 1st Amendment not violated. Has anyone said that they don't have the freedom to worship as they please? No. Total bogus argument. What has really happened is they have made it abundantly clear that Christians are not welcome.

The first amendment isn't just about freedom of speech. The fact they could still speak doesn't prove their rights were not violated. That's unfortunate you don't know what all is included in the first amendment. You wouldn't happen to be a teacher would you?

Luke 9:5 And as many as receive you not, when ye depart from that city, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Therefore leave the public school

Luke 10:11 Even the dust from your city, that cleaveth to our feet, we wipe off against you: nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh.

I agree that leaving the public school is a viable option. Nevertheless, when you are working for the public, we have this pesky thing called "rights".

 

[ZNP]

I think the point went over your head. It's not comparing their violations, it's comparing their justification for violating someone's rights. You tried making a point of teachers were told there is an assembly and so they took the students to the assembly and held students who didn't want to view it against their will. I'm saying, that doesn't excuse anything... They should know what the first amendment is.

If that was your point why not say Fascists or Tyrants? No, Nazi's includes more than simply violating someone's rights.

My point has apparently gone over your head. Teachers are not permitted to just release kids into the halls because they don't want to be in an assembly. The idea that kids rights are being violated because they don't want to be in school is a joke. The comedy of the absurd.

This reminds me of the attack on the Nick Sandmann by CNN.

It reminds me of the attack on MAGA for the racist attack on Jussie Smollett.

It reminds me of the attack on Kyle Rittenhouse.

People lie. People love to claim their rights have been violated. I will wait till this goes to trial and all the evidence is in before making a judgement.

 

[ZNP]

The first amendment isn't just about freedom of speech. The fact they could still speak doesn't prove their rights were not violated. That's unfortunate you don't know what all is included in the first amendment. You wouldn't happen to be a teacher would you?

The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise.

You are saying that Public school needs to prohibit the free exercise of the Christians right to speak.

 

[Smoke]

My position has been consistent, based on what we have been told the two teachers made a mistake, however, I also feel we have not been told the whole story. At the very least the two teachers should be able to speak if they have anything to add. Therefore your claim that I am making excuses for them is false. Some would say a lie, but that would imply malicious intent.

Now if the cancel culture wants to attack and fire every teacher that makes a mistake, go ahead. You will bite and devour one another and there will not be a single teacher left standing after twenty years.

Were these teachers fired? Or were they just educated that they can't do that?

You just seem a bit hypersensitive to any criticism about teachers... probably because you are one?

I agree about the teachers having the right to speak out if they want. I'm curious what they have to say. If they say they didn't know attendance was optional, then I would ask how they were not aware that forcing people against their will to stay at a religious service is a violation of their rights. If they say they are not familiar with basic fundamental rights, I would make sure they receive education on them and perhaps perform an audit in the future to ensure the violation would not be repeated.

For what it's worth, I don't think they should even be fired. They need to learn from their mistake though.

 

[Smoke]

The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise.

You are saying that Public school needs to prohibit the free exercise of the Christians right to speak.

Where did I say such foolishness?

I said public schools and teachers don't have the right to hold students against their will to attend a religious service. Christians and Muslims have the right to speak. Everyone does.

 

[ZNP]

I hope all teachers are reading this thread. They will come for you. Leaving the public school is not just for parents of children, it is also for teachers who are Christian.

 

[ZNP]

Where did I say such foolishness?

Post 22

I'm concerned with people not appreciating the first amendment in this thread. I am pleased to have the freedom to worship my Heavenly Father. While I have that freedom, I also have freedom FROM religion.

No such freedom "from religion" and this assertion is idiotic. The constitution has no authority to say this. God can convict you of sin, regardless of how much you want to be free from that.

Post #26

I think you misread what I said. I said, I have freedom of religion and "freedom from religion."

No you don’t. You have freedom from the US federal government establishing a religion but the federal government has no right to prohibit the free exercise of someone sharing their faith. The federal government has no authority to protect your delicate ears from hearing the gospel.

 

[ZNP]

For what it's worth, I don't think they should even be fired. They need to learn from their mistake though.

For what it is worth you don’t say you want them fired, but you do want them to quit, claiming they should never be a teacher in the first place and comparing them to Nazis.

Post #26

Yes, and "Nazis were just doing their job" too. If a teacher doesn't know that making a student stay and attend a worship service is violating that student's first amendment rights, then I question their ability to even teach in the first place.

I also encourage teachers who are worshipping the Lord to leave the public school system and work with your church to set up homeschooling.

 

[Smoke]

Post 22

"I'm concerned with people not appreciating the first amendment in this thread. I am pleased to have the freedom to worship my Heavenly Father. While I have that freedom, I also have freedom FROM religion.

The teachers who didn't allow the students to leave were clearly in the wrong. You can view the kids as petty, immature, etc... nevertheless, people fought and died for their right to not have it forced down their throat.

I think being morbidly obese is wrong, but I don't think we should be legally allowed to force people to treat their body as a temple. It doesn't make a difference if it's physically feeding or mental feeding, we have free will and can put whatever we want into our body/mind. "

Now where in this post did I say "Public schools need to prohibit the free exercise of the Christians right to speak"???? Please highlight it.

No such freedom "from religion" and this assertion is idiotic. The constitution has no authority to say this. God can convict you of sin, regardless of how much you want to be free from that.

Post #26

The constitution clearly states congress... not God. Remember, this is a PUBLIC school, not a PRIVATE school. The government does not have the authority to grant schools/teachers the ability to force students to go or remain in a service. You're comparing God convicting someone of sin to these teachers violating these students' civil rights... It's disgusting and utterly disingenuous to be quite honest.

No you don’t. You have freedom from the US federal government establishing a religion but the federal government has no right to prohibit the free exercise of someone sharing their faith. The federal government has no authority to protect your delicate ears from hearing the gospel.

I thought I already tore that paper tiger down. I already said a person has the right to express their religious beliefs... but the school/teachers don't have the right to hold students against their will to attend a voluntary service.

 

[Smoke]

For what it is worth you don’t say you want them fired, but you do want them to quit, claiming they should never be a teacher in the first place and comparing them to Nazis.

Post #26



I also encourage teachers who are worshipping the Lord to leave the public school system and work with your church to set up homeschooling.

I didn't say I want them to quit. I do question their ability to teach when they don't know basic civil rights. Then again, it's kind of commonplace for people who never had to risk their life to defend our liberties to take them for granted. The least we can do is know what they died to uphold and protect.

 

[ZNP]

but the school/teachers don't have the right to hold students against their will to attend a voluntary service.

This is the crux of the disagreement. I reject the premise. The federal government has no right to make any law concerning this one way or the other. Therefore what the States want to do with Public school is up to them.

At one time there was prayer in Public school. That was outlawed by the Supreme Court. I feel the Supreme court had no authority since the Federal government has no authority in matters pertaining to religion.

Prior to that the readers that were used to teach reading were based on Bible stories. They replaced those about 50 years after instituting public school with Dick and Jane and other insipid readers which is why children hate to read now.

Since this is a matter concerning public school and there is nothing in the constitution concerning public school it is up to the states, not the feds or the Supreme court.

But I have no interest in letting law courts fight this out. Nor do I have any interest in debating the US constitution with you. You have made your position clear and I will "take it for what it is worth".

Therefore, my position is Christians are not welcome in Public school and therefore should shake off the dust and leave. You get 10-20% of the students leaving public school and it will be amazing how they reinterpret the law real fast.

 

[Smoke]

This is the crux of the disagreement. I reject the premise. The federal government has no right to make any law concerning this one way or the other. Therefore what the States want to do with Public school is up to them.

At one time there was prayer in Public school. That was outlawed by the Supreme Court. I feel the Supreme court had no authority since the Federal government has no authority in matters pertaining to religion.

Prior to that the readers that were used to teach reading were based on Bible stories. They replaced those about 50 years after instituting public school with Dick and Jane and other insipid readers which is why children hate to read now.

Since this is a matter concerning public school and there is nothing in the constitution concerning public school it is up to the states, not the feds or the Supreme court.

But I have no interest in letting law courts fight this out. Nor do I have any interest in debating the US constitution with you. You have made your position clear and I will "take it for what it is worth".

Therefore, my position is Christians are not welcome in Public school and therefore should shake off the dust and leave. You get 10-20% of the students leaving public school and it will be amazing how they reinterpret the law real fast.

This is the most precise post you've made in this thread. And I appreciate your personal belief/disagreement. Nevertheless, I wasn't necessarily giving my personal opinion on the topic as much as I was giving you what the law is/how the Supreme Court has decided/interpreted what the constitution has to say about it.

Public schools are primarily funded by local property taxes, but also in part by federal grants/taxes/etc... Be it local/state/federal government, the current law of the land is that schools and teachers cannot force people to attend religious services... On that part I will explicitly state I agree with. I get you feel they should if the local/state government says they can... That wasn't what we were discussing originally though.

There are lots of things that I believe are unconstitutional... the Federal Reserve for one... the IRS... nevertheless, I still pay my taxes and the federal reserve is still a thing...