Do you observe the Sabbath?
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You've put that very well. In regards to Rom8:3&4, the bible gives us the blueprint for holy living, but none of us perfectly follows the manual so to speak. As a Baptist minister of 50 years once said:
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''
I thought he put that very well indeed.
How do you know that this chapter refers to the 10 commandments? If it's talking about the law of commandments that would include more than just the "Big Ten". According to Mathew ; 22;
37 Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and the great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hangeth the whole Law and the Prophets.
It seemed that he was speaking to the Christian Church at the time. I don't see why he would have been talking about Judaism to Christians, unless there were still many that kept the Sabbath. Which I understand to be the case.
Judaism, the Jews who believed in one God and followed the law.
Gentiles who convert to Christianity are not converting to Judaism.
Christianity is the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not Judaism.
Anyone promoting one or more laws from Mt Sinai in Christianity, are promoting Judaism, i.e. legalism.
The federal law in Israel at the time of Jesus was Judaism.
The federal law in Israel now, the USA or even England is not Judaism. Jesus would not be crucified in modern Israel.
What about what Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians "Honor thy father and thy mother; which is the first commandment with a promise;" Please read Eph.6:1-3
I am only trying to get people to realize that there is a vast difference between what Christendom promotes and what Jesus and the apostles actually taught.
Well, you are clearly changing the subject! (The OP is about observing the Sabbath.)
Since you make such a bold (and incorrect) statement about what Christendom promotes, contrasting it with what Jesus and the apostles actually taught, why not start a thread about it?
My apologies. I was trying to show that what Iquisitor stated was, in fact, untrue.
I am sorry if I over generalized, I have found that most of the people I know that call themselves Christian, adhere to a brand of Christianity that does not stand up to what Jesus and the apostles actually taught.
I do not intend to cause division over it, but to respond to what I see as error.
Which I thought, by exposing the error in understanding of what was stated, there may be a considering of whether there are other misunderstandings in one's doctrine.
There are two ways to read your quotation.
Ephesians 6:1-4
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may turn out well for you, and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
1) Your under the law children, obey the fourth commandment otherwise you will die
2) Children, the right thing to do as a Christian is to honor your parents, even the law states that
I would favor the second reading.
I was responding to the statement that anyone promoting the Law is promoting legalism.
Many times Paul refers to the Law when teaching a concept. This is using the Law lawfully. I am only trying to bring attention to the fact that there are many things that we believe and have been taught that are not in accordance with what the Word of Jesus or Paul actually taught.
Soon there will be 2 witnesses giving testimony to the world and many will not believe them because what they speak will not line up with what the churches teach, but they are the true witnesses of GOD calling mankind to repentance for the last time.
I just hope that we will endure their testimony of prophecy, for I believe that they will be addressing the 10 Commandments and the literal keeping of the Sabbath.
Many times Paul refers to the Law when teaching a concept. This is using the Law lawfully. I am only trying to bring attention to the fact that there are many things that we believe and have been taught that are not in accordance with what the Word of Jesus or Paul actually taught.
Soon there will be 2 witnesses giving testimony to the world and many will not believe them because what they speak will not line up with what the churches teach, but they are the true witnesses of GOD calling mankind to repentance for the last time.
I just hope that we will endure their testimony of prophecy, for I believe that they will be addressing the 10 Commandments and the literal keeping of the Sabbath.
The reality does escape us all but we souldn't stop aiming to walk with the Lord closer and closer each day.
There is a war..we are in this war. We sometimes miss the main aspects of this war.
Like it was in Jesus' day they missed the point and didn't understand why He came.
Jesus came to save us. ...Not from the roman government, not from the powers around that take our money cause the pain.
Jesus came to save us from sin the source of all pain and suffering.
No Sin = Heaven.
Sin is the real enemy and we are all fallen and sinful... O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?Rom 7:24
Jesus has, is, and will save us. Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.
To say that Jesus can't save us is saying we have no solution and no hope.
He can save us and not just through Justification.
2Co_6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
His grace is more powerful then Sin, but we should not recieve it in vain.
2Co 6:2-10 ----Giving no offence in any thing, ----in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, ...... as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am.
By Gods grace we can overcome, not by our self but by faith we can have the victory.
I know it isn't easy and i admit, i fail often, but that is because i am doing it myself (self takes control), when the flesh comes to life i will always fail.
Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
So the war is about who controls the heart..
Self or Christ
If Christ controls us we are told we will have the victory. If self or the flesh controls us we will fail and cause pain and suffering.
1Co 15:55-58 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Moral priciples of love...
Love =
Love God and Love your neighbour. =
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself = the first four of the 10 and the last 6 of the 10... (Exo 20:3-17.....Love for God = Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, ......not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; .... Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. ..... Love for your neighbour = Honour thy father and thy mother:.... Thou shalt not kill. .... Thou shalt not commit adultery. .... Thou shalt not steal..... Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. ..... Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.) =
Matt 5... Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
.....Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Psa_40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa_119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,...
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Love = the moral law written on our hearts. = Heaven
why believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, if there is no laws that condemn us to death?
Christianity is bible based = Salvation through faith in Jesus. It also teaches that there was a moral law that pointed out sin from the start and Jesus came to save us from the penalty and curse of that law. Not to destroy the law but save us from its condemnation.
No law = no sin = no need for Jesus to die.
Adam introduced death into the world according to Paul.
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned. For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
"but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law"
Avoid at all costs placing anyone under the law, you will condemn them to death.
No law = no sin = no death.
In Adam we all die anyway.
We are mortal and only through Jesus can we become immortal.
The level of sin is not relevant since we are mortal and we all die anyway.
You don't need a Bible to be saved.
Many folk down through history that could not read the Bible were saved.
Christianity is the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus.
The apostles were not walking around preaching the law.
The law can't save anyone. Knowing the law will not stop you sinning. There is no righteousness in the law.
Trying to obey the law is an exercise in futility.
Can i go a bit deeper...
Exo 25:10-
15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it.
16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Sure this is old testement.
But can we learn anything from this? Did God have a plan and was it important to follow this plan?
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
The point is that Jesus is in heaven pleading his blood, for our sins to be forgiven.. like the pattern.
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Learning from the pattern in the old testiment we can see how it works in heaven.
The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark and the mercy seat was above them.
Jesus provides us with mercy for our sins and we can come to God without fear if we know Jesus has forgiven us.
from Adam to Moses there must have been a law pointing out sin.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
because death reigned from Adam to Moses = there was a law.
Are you saying that people did not sin from Adam til Moses? not imputed = not made accountable. Why did Jesus need to forgive their sin if they are not accountable. the wages of sin is death so if they are not acountable for sin they are unjustly put to death.