Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[rogerg]

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f Rom1:17

Only by Christ's faith. From and by His faith is faith given to them as a gift. But it is by Christ's faith that is anyone saved.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[thomas64]

Only by Christ's faith. From and by His faith is faith given to them as a gift. But it is by Christ's faith that is anyone saved.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I wont discuss scripture with you, for your rules do not lead to mature debate. If anyone quotes plain scripture verses to you, you feel you have the right to overturn them with CON TEXT. Yet if you quote plain verses of scripture to anyone else, they must accept your verses as written. Maturity is brinigng the whole bible into cohesion as one whole message

 

[thomas64]

Actually only the last group was saved

the others were not saved, hence why they never produced fruit

BTW
If only the last group was saved in the parable of the sower. Where have you reaped a crop that was 30, 60 or a hundred times what was sown? Not on the internet, no one changes their minds here

 

[rogerg]

I wont discuss scripture with you, for your rules do not lead to mature debate. If anyone quotes plain scripture verses to you, you feel you have the right to overturn them with CON TEXT. Yet if you quote plain verses of scripture to anyone else, they must accept your verses as written. Maturity is brinigng the whole bible into cohesion as one whole message

Okay, no problem. Keep in mind though that when you say, "as written", that means you believe each verse is fully complete in itself and by that, you thereby place yourself in violation of 1 Pet 1:20 and 1 Co 1:13 - that is not how God wrote the Bible, nor how He intended it to be read, so for you, finding understanding and its correct interpretation, will be very difficult.

 

[thomas64]

Okay, no problem. Keep in mind though that when you say, "as written", that means you believe each verse is fully complete in itself and by that, you thereby place yourself in violation of 1 Pet 1:20 and 1 Co 1:13 - that is not how God wrote the Bible, nor how He intended it to be read, so for you, finding understanding and its correct interpretation, will be very difficult.

I said you insist all your verses are taken as written, but you you feel able to overturn anyone elses verses as written when it disagrees with your preconceived ideas. Please quote me correctly

 

[VARob]

Not true. Whether the least or the greatest is required it doesn't matter. All that matters is whether we believe that something, anything, outside of Christ is required. Should we believe so, then, in effect, we are saying that Christ is not the Saviour, and we thereby remain under law. It is also saying that we believe God the Father's testimony of Christ as being the Saviour is a lie.
Both, at the same time, simply cannot be true - that salvation is through/by Christ, yet also believing that something is still needed on our part in order to complete it.
Christ is not a "mostly" Saviour.

Your concept of "saviour" is not correct. Jesus Christ is a complete saviour. He saves to the uttermost, people who want to be saved.

Like it or not, people do have a role to play in their salvation. God will not save people against their will.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

BTW
If only the last group was saved in the parable of the sower. Where have you reaped a crop that was 30, 60 or a hundred times what was sown? Not on the internet, no one changes their minds here

I have changed my mind on a few things here

You need to be more positive

 

[rogerg]

Your concept of "saviour" is not correct. Jesus Christ is a complete saviour. He saves to the uttermost, people who want to be saved.

Like it or not, people do have a role to play in their salvation. God will not save people against their will.

If anything whatsoever is needed from a recipient of salvation to initiate or to complete their salvation, then Christ is not/cannot be the Saviour because salvation would be dependent upon them and not upon Christ.
The doctrine of Christ as Saviour is the foundation of the Bible.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Faith is not saying yes. Saying yes must be from faith, because why would anyone choose to say yes without it - it would be meaningless. But even if having to say yes is true (which it is not), then just in having to say it alone makes it into a work and a law.

However, that was not my point. My point was that should it be of us, then the saving is taken away from Christ the Saviour and places it into our hands - thus making of us our own saviour - or not (depending).

True faith is only as a gift from God. Anything that we perceive as being our requirement for it, means that it can't be a gift, making it
a work - our work.

If salvation is a gift as you say by quoting Eph 2:8 above, then everything that brings that salvation must also be a gif or salvation couldn't/wouldn't be a gift.

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus
Christ:
[Gal 2:16 KJV]

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

My friend

When you STOP working
When you STOP trying to save yourself
When you STOP thinking you are ok. and realise you are a sinner and your sin has condemned you
When you STOP to realize your only hope is the work of God
is when you TRUST (have faith) in the hope that God is offering you (the hope of eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised....
Is when you call out.

This is not you saving yourself. You need to stop and think about this.. A person who stops and allows a savior to save them did not save themselves.. The person who saved them did. that person gets ALL the credit

this thinking that if I trust God, his promise and his work to save me means I am saving myself is quite rediculous. Sorry, but that is just the way I feel

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Have you found anyone who was 100% right 100% of the time?

are any of us 100% right 100% of the time?

 

[rogerg]

My friend

When you STOP working
When you STOP trying to save yourself
When you STOP thinking you are ok. and realise you are a sinner and your sin has condemned you
When you STOP to realize your only hope is the work of God
is when you TRUST (have faith) in the hope that God is offering you (the hope of eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised....
Is when you call out.

This is not you saving yourself. You need to stop and think about this.. A person who stops and allows a savior to save them did not save themselves.. The person who saved them did. that person gets ALL the credit

this thinking that if I trust God, his promise and his work to save me means I am saving myself is quite rediculous. Sorry, but that is just the way I feel

If you think that "calling out" is what makes you saved, then you are still trusting in your works.
One can only have faith in Christ if it is given to them as a gift of salvation - not for salvation.
Those things you mentioned above are true, but only as salvation's byproduct, not its cause.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you think that "calling out" is what makes you saved, then you are still trusting in your works.
One can only have faith in Christ if it is given to them as a gift of salvation - not for salvation.
Those things you mentioned above are true, but only as salvation's byproduct, not its cause.

no, I do not think calling out is WHAT.

I think it is WHEN.

You have a skewed view of what faith is. That worries me..

 

[rogerg]

no, I do not think calling out is WHAT.

I think it is WHEN.

I don't understand that.

You have a skewed view of what faith is. That worries me..

That I believe faith is a gift/fruit of the Spirit when born-again worries you? If you don't believe it is given as a gift, then how do you think someone acquires it, of themselves?

Thanks, but no need to worry.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't understand that.

If your are drowning in the ocean. and a rescuer comes and tells you to stop trying to save yourself or you will die. Sit still and let him save you, do you save yourself when you stop working. or are you saved WHEN you stop working (in faith)

If your in a burning building, and a rescuer comes and tells you to stop trying to save yourself or your will die. Stop working and trust him, he will save you...Do you save yourself when you stop working. or are you saved WHEN you stop working

I can have many other examples of people who are saved ONLY when they humble themselves and place their faith in the one who was sent to save them.. And they did not save themselves. nor could they boast in themselves. In fact, that have nothing to boast about. because they were UNABLE to save themselves. All glory goes to the one sent to save them

That I believe faith is a gift/fruit of the Spirit when born-again worries you? If you don't believe it is given as a gift, then how do you think someone acquires it, of themselves?

Thanks, but no need to worry.

That you think that one who places their faith in God saves themselves. that is just nonsensical that a person who stop working and in humility trusts the savior to save them saves themselves....Yet that is what you want me to believe

Faith can not come from yourself. All faith comes from God concerning him.

I was saved WHEN I placed my faith in Christ and called out. That was not HOW I was saved. and I can not boast in it.. I can only boast in christ. who saved me by GRACE through faith (Faith is not what saves....)

 

[VARob]

If anything whatsoever is needed from a recipient of salvation to initiate or to complete their salvation, then Christ is not/cannot be the Saviour because salvation would be dependent upon them and not upon Christ.
The doctrine of Christ as Saviour is the foundation of the Bible.

Like I said, your understanding of "saviour" is incorrect.

 

[rogerg]

If your are drowning in the ocean. and a rescuer comes and tells you to stop trying to save yourself or you will die. Sit still and let him save you, do you save yourself when you stop working. or are you saved WHEN you stop working (in faith)

If your in a burning building, and a rescuer comes and tells you to stop trying to save yourself or your will die. Stop working and trust him, he will save you...Do you save yourself when you stop working. or are you saved WHEN you stop working

I can have many other examples of people who are saved ONLY when they humble themselves and place their faith in the one who was sent to save them.. And they did not save themselves. nor could they boast in themselves. In fact, that have nothing to boast about. because they were UNABLE to save themselves. All glory goes to the one sent to save them

Bad examples. The appropriate way to look at it is if someone walking in a park is bitten by a fatal pit viper and becomes
oblivious, incapacitated, non-responsive, stone cold dead, and someone walks by with a magical anti-venom, gives it to him freely, returning him back to life, then nurses him back to health at his own expense. Was that victim able to do anything while dead to help return himself back to life, or was it only by the person's mercy? Had the person not acted, then the victim would have remained permanently dead. When the victim is returned to life/health and is even better mentally and physically than he was before dying, would he be happy/grateful or angry about it?

That you think that one who places their faith in God saves themselves. that is just nonsensical that a person who stop working and in humility trusts the savior to save them saves themselves....Yet that is what you want me to believe

Faith can not come from yourself. All faith comes from God concerning him.

I was saved WHEN I placed my faith in Christ and called out. That was not HOW I was saved. and I can not boast in it.. I can only boast in christ. who saved me by GRACE through faith (Faith is not what saves....)

Just so that I'm clear, you are now saying you believe faith is only as a gift from God and only given to
those born-again from salvation alone? Before which, they don't/can't have true faith in-and-of themselves?
Yes, or no?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Bad examples. The appropriate way to look at it is if someone walking in a park is bitten by a fatal pit viper and becomes
oblivious, incapacitated, non-responsive, stone cold dead, and someone walks by with a magical anti-venom, gives it to him freely, returning him back to life, then nurses him back to health at his own expense. Was that victim able to do anything while dead to help return himself back to life, or was it only by the person's mercy? Had the person not acted, then the victim would have remained permanently dead. When the victim is returned to life/health and is even better mentally and physically than he was before dying, would he be happy or angry about it?



Just so that I'm clear, you are now saying you believe faith is only as a gift from God and only given to
those born-again from salvation alone? Before which, they don't/can't have true faith in-and-of themselves?
Yes, or no?

lol. no, that is an awful example and is not biblical.

Jesus was sent to the lost. not to judge them, but to save them.

I do not know why you are so afraid to trust jesus and think this is you saving yourself.

Anyway, I thought we agreed to disagree.. You thinking is just to confusing and nonsensical. I will not change your mind that is obvious..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Bad examples. The appropriate way to look at it is if someone walking in a park is bitten by a fatal pit viper and becomes
oblivious, incapacitated, non-responsive, stone cold dead, and someone walks by with a magical anti-venom, gives it to him freely, returning him back to life, then nurses him back to health at his own expense. Was that victim able to do anything while dead to help return himself back to life, or was it only by the person's mercy? Had the person not acted, then the victim would have remained permanently dead. When the victim is returned to life/health and is even better mentally and physically than he was before dying, would he be happy/grateful or angry about it?



Just so that I'm clear, you are now saying you believe faith is only as a gift from God and only given to
those born-again from salvation alone? Before which, they don't/can't have true faith in-and-of themselves?
Yes, or no?

a dead person can do nothing, they can;t do good or bad. They can't swim, they can't get married. they are dead. lifeless. they can;t even move a finger.

So your dead example is again nonsensical. That person could not repent. he could not become bankrupt in spirit. he could not do anything.

 

[rogerg]

a dead person can do nothing, they can;t do good or bad. They can't swim, they can't get married. they are dead. lifeless. they can;t even move a finger.

So your dead example is again nonsensical. That person could not repent. he could not become bankrupt in spirit. he could not do anything.

That's the whole point - the unsaved are dead in their sin and completely unable to help themselves or do anything about it.

No, it is not nonsensical, you just are unable to recognize the parallel.
Read this verse and think about it. Do you see the "dead in your sins" part? Being dead means they can do nothing to bring themselves spiritual life just as in my example with the victim not being able to give himself physical life, so it is not nonsensical -in fact, just the reverse. That spiritual life must be given is why it is called being BORN-AGAIN - because until and unless that happens, we remain spiritually dead. If given, we have spiritual life. Being saved/born-again is the magical spiritual anti-venom.

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[ButterflyJones]

If you think that "calling out" is what makes you saved, then you are still trusting in your works.
One can only have faith in Christ if it is given to them as a gift of salvation - not for salvation.
Those things you mentioned above are true, but only as salvation's byproduct, not its cause.

Yes.
What must be and is consistently ignored by the, I choose Christ doctrine, is 1 Corinthians 2.

Paul knows what he's talking about from personal experience.

Jesus found and changed Paul's natural mind when Paul was walking the Damascus road on his way to persecute more apostate Jews for leaving Judaism and turning to Jesus' gospel.

The idea that the natural mind calls out to God is contrary to 1 Corinthians 2. And yet, as is God's plan, that idea proves the truth of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Isn't that wonderful? God uses all things for his purpose.

And another thing I'm sure you know. We cannot argue the natural minded to change their point of view. That's God's job.