Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[cv5]

Thanks for responding.

I asked "If we fall away can we come back"
The we being me/you and others and not a generalising of Jews and Gentiles.

How would you reconcile the following?

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This is basically the way that I interpret this passage. Not exactly....but close enough to post it.

Does Hebrews 6:4-6 teach that a true believer can lose his salvation?

No. In that passage, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, “You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.” They were at the best point for repentance–full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal.

Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost.

The believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5).

If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Sorry a little bit confused.

You posted



Are you saying we can always repent if we fall away and come back through repentance?

But based on 2 Peter 2:20 are you saying we cannot?

If so how does that tie in with the Hebrews verses I posted?

I am saying that God has a limit. When someone reaches that limit, there's no more hope.

 

[ButterflyJones]

For me, it has been 32 years since I 'darkened' the door of a building
(except for a funeral). It wasn't the people, but the doctrinal positions
of denominations and traditions.

So, I simply just stay with The Scriptures, and know * that I will give an
account To The Righteous Judge, The LORD Jesus Christ. Amen.

* hopefully with The Gospel of Grace, and, at least this ONE thing correct?:
No Other Doctrine!

Precious friend:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!

You know what the scriptures says. "The Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be?"

Paul told us all of nature is testament of God so we are without excuse.

I was brought to church as an infant. When I was in my my teens I was allowed to stay home on Sunday. Eventually my parents did too. Too many wolves disguised as sheep. Ready to use you when they had need but turned away when needed later by the one they used.

False doctrine creeping in could not be tolerated either. God's truth does not change with these times.

I read my Bible when outside after a long healthy walk on my land. God is everywhere.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I am saying that God has a limit. When someone reaches that limit, there's no more hope.

Some people we see get many chances to repent.

But think about Esau, he never got a first chance to repent.

 

[cv5]

Thanks for responding.

I asked "If we fall away can we come back"
The we being me/you and others and not a generalising of Jews and Gentiles.

How would you reconcile the following?

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This is KEY to understanding theses passages (and Heb 10 as well). And to this I totally agree.....

"A proper interpretation of this epistle requires the recognition that it addresses 3 distinct groups of Jews:
1) believers; 2) unbelievers who were intellectually convinced of the gospel; and 3) unbelievers who were attracted by the gospel and the person of Christ but who had reached no final conviction about Him. Failure to acknowledge these groups leads to interpretations inconsistent with the rest of Scripture."

The primary group addressed were Hebrew Christians who suffered rejection and persecution by fellow Jews (10:32–34), although none as yet had been martyred (12:4). The letter was written to give them encouragement and confidence in Christ, their Messiah and High-Priest. They were an immature group of believers who were tempted to hold on to the symbolic and spiritually powerless rituals and traditions of Judaism.

The second group addressed were Jewish unbelievers who were convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who had not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their own Savior and Lord. They were intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted. These unbelievers are addressed in such passages as 2:1–3; 6:4–6; 10:26–29; and 12:15–17.

The third group addressed were Jewish unbelievers who were not convinced of the gospel’s truth but had had some exposure to it. Chapter 9 is largely devoted to them (see especially vv. 11,14,15,27,28).

 

[ResidentAlien]

You are trying to add something significant to the verse that it just does not say, nor can it support. Nice to know that you can just change gospel to make it fit what you want at your whim. Were what you're saying to be true, then it just couldn't correctly say "through the knowledge" because were it by salvation as you say, then it would have to had said "through the salvation" because without question, that would be the correct explanation, not knowledge. However, it doesn't say that because for it do so would make it wrong.
You are just unable to read it closely enough to grasp its intent or compare it to other scripture to come to a correct interpretation.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge [epignósis] of the truth."

Being saved and coming to the knowledge of the truth go hand-in-hand. I don't see how anyone can think escaping "the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" can mean anything but salvation.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Most reach salvation and rest there, that is so NOT the way He desires we choose, we are to train and wage spiritual war.

Can you blame them, when they are taught a Lot Of Confusion, and are not able
to "grow into maturity, and learn HOW to be a 'good soldier' Of Jesus Christ"?

And then they get bombarded with stuff like this?:

One clear evidence is they DENY most of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In God's Light Of:

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand​

against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh​

and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against​

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wicked-​

ness in high places.​

​

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may​

be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​

​

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with Truth, and​

​

having on the breastplate of righteousness; And​

​

your feet shod with the preparation of The Gospel of Peace;​

​

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be​

able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And​

​

take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,​

which is The Word of God:​

​

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,​

and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplica-​

tion for all saints;"​

​

I suppose men want me to add to this list: "and DON'T deny most of the gifts"
But "What DOES God Add?:

"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may​

open my mouth boldly, to make known The Mystery Of The Gospel,"​

(Eph 6:11-19)​

Seems to me that it Is Much Better to do this with The "Gifts That Now Abide":

faith, hope, and Love, And The Greatest Of These Is: LOVE! ​

Where, Exactly is this "love" found in the religious judgmental doctrine of:

One is NOT saved, because there is NO "evidence of The Spirit," because one
does NOT "speak in the [ LEAST esteemed! ] gift of tongues"???
=====================================
Thus, I prefer God's Way:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[ButterflyJones]

Thanks for responding.

I asked "If we fall away can we come back"
The we being me/you and others and not a generalising of Jews and Gentiles.

How would you reconcile the following?

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

If you can fall away then that puts Christ and the cross to shame.

Of all the Father gives him he shall lose none. Being Omniscient and Sovereign I credit those attributes as proof God knows what he's talking about.

 

[ResidentAlien]

If you can fall away then that puts Christ and the cross to shame.

No it doesn't. It puts shame on the person who fell away.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge [epignósis] of the truth."

Being saved and coming to the knowledge of the truth go hand-in-hand. I don't see how anyone can think escaping "the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" can mean anything but salvation.

Amen!

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

who, who have truly understood their eternal destiny based on who and what God is. who was saved, would want to go back?

I've wondered that too, since God Does THIS?:

2Ti 1:7 "For God Hath not Given us the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Can you blame them, when they are taught a Lot Of Confusion, and are not able
to "grow into maturity, and learn HOW to be a 'good soldier' Of Jesus Christ"?

And then they get bombarded with stuff like this?:

In God's Light Of:

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand​

against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh​

and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against​

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wicked-​

ness in high places.​

​

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may​

be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​

​

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with Truth, and​

​

having on the breastplate of righteousness; And​

​

your feet shod with the preparation of The Gospel of Peace;​

​

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be​

able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And​

​

take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,​

which is The Word of God:​

​

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,​

and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplica-​

tion for all saints;"​

​

I suppose men want me to add to this list: "and DON'T deny most of the gifts"
But "What DOES God Add?:

"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may​

open my mouth boldly, to make known The Mystery Of The Gospel,"​

(Eph 6:11-19)​

Seems to me that it Is Much Better to do this with The "Gifts That Now Abide":

faith, hope, and Love, And The Greatest Of These Is: LOVE! ​

Where, Exactly is this "love" found in the religious judgmental doctrine of:

One is NOT saved, because there is NO "evidence of The Spirit," because one
does NOT "speak in the [ LEAST esteemed! ] gift of tongues"???
=====================================
Thus, I prefer God's Way:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

We know the Mystery is the Gospel of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

If the unregenerate have no clue about God that AUTOMATICALLY means those with Knowledge have to be Saved.

Oh my!

Have you never read Luk 8:13 - 15? Do you think they of v13 &v14 were saved? No, they weren't - only those on good ground were.
These verses (amongst others) invalidate everything you just posted. As another poster mentioned, (paraphrasing), if salvation isn't
eternal once received, then a lot of scripture needs to change. Is that what you think - that scripture needs to be changed to fit
your beliefs?

[Luk 8:13-15 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

[Jhn 3:15 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[Jhn 6:54 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
[1Jo 5:11, 13 KJV] 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. ...
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Oh my!

Have you never read Luk 8:13 - 15? Do you think they of v13 &v14 were saved? No, they weren't - only those on good ground were.
These verses (amongst others) invalidate everything you just posted. As another poster mentioned, (paraphrasing), if salvation isn't
eternal once received, then a lot of scripture needs to change. Is that what you think - that scripture needs to be changed to fit
your beliefs?

[Luk 8:13-15 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

[Jhn 3:15 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[Jhn 6:54 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
[1Jo 5:11, 13 KJV] 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. ...
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

You really are proving my point.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

AMEN! ALL The Glory Goes To God Alone, For What HE 'Has DONE!'
'Secure FOREVER' x 144 Passages!:

God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ
+
God's Eternal Assurance

And Again, Paul/@cv5/Ga Say: REJOICE!

 

[rogerg]

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge [epignósis] of the truth."

Being saved and coming to the knowledge of the truth go hand-in-hand. I don't see how anyone can think escaping "the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" can mean anything but salvation.

Taking your last comment first, I just explained all of that to The watchers 2017 - if you're curious about it, see my replies to him.
For you first comment, you stopped comparing other verses with 1 Tim 2:3 -4 too soon.

We need to look at the other verses to find out who the "all" consist of - because the Bible tells us that. These verses tell us who they are. The "all" are all the Father gives to Christ and He will raise them on the last day. It is neither biblically nor logically possible for the "all" to mean everyone ever born. Therefore, 'all" cannot be more than those whom the Father gave to the Son and had intended to save.

[Jhn 6:37, 39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Luv a ya bro.

You too Bro!

 

[rogerg]

You really are proving my point.

Hmmm - okay. This discussion is unfruitful, no sense continuing it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Agreed, but yet we have example in OUR BIBLE that tells us this did really happen. Backsliders!
Apostate!

So it can happen even if you and I know we would never do it.

It can only happen according to salvation if salvation is because of works

Otherwise it can never happen.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am saying that God has a limit. When someone reaches that limit, there's no more hope.

He does have a limit

commit 1 sin, and your done..

after this, there is only grace..