Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[VARob]

No. If it was God's will for everyone to become saved, they would become saved, but they don't become saved so that was never His will.

Your statement directly contradicts 1 Tim 2:4.

 

[John146]

Interesting... So you believe everyone is going to be saved?

Who is going to be thrown into the lake of fire? Who are those whose names will not be written in the book of life?

Here comes the adding to scripture comment...all men means all of the elect.

 

[VARob]

All things accomplish God's purposes. Even Satan is accomplishing God's purposes.

What???!

 

[VARob]

Yes. But never anything He doesn't choose.
Look...we disagree about the sovereignty of God. It's not a salvation issue. I truly appreciate your candor and time. Grace and peace.

That's the issue.

 

[Cameron143]

Interesting... So you believe everyone is going to be saved?

Who is going to be thrown into the lake of fire? Who are those whose names will not be written in the book of life?

I believe all there is referring to all who the Father has given to Jesus. Not one, save the son of perdition, is lost.

 

[VARob]

Sin falls under what God allows. He could stop you at any moment.
It is sin that called for the sacrifice of Jesus. In this sacrifice, the love of God is more fully known. God is more and more glorified as more of Himself is revealed. So it is in this sense that in the sovereign purposes of God, He chose to allow sin.

Of course God allows sin. How can He not allow it? He gave His created beings free will. It wasn't God's will for the devil to sin, nor for Adam to sin. Nor for us to sin, for that matter.

In like manner, God could make you holy as He is holy.

God declares proplr holy when they choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

He has chosen to work through the Holy Spirit and over time to perfect us. In this sense, sin still accomplishes His purposes.

Sin does not accomplish God's purposes. He hates it when we sin.

God can both allow something and desire you to be free of it.

Of course.

 

[VARob]

I believe all there is referring to all who the Father has given to Jesus. Not one, save the son of perdition, is list.

There is nothing in 1 Tim 2:4 or 2 Pet 3:9 about "all who the Father has given to Jesus."

 

[rogerg]

Your statement directly contradicts 1 Tim 2:4.

You didn't consider the other like verses as the Bible tells us to in order to understand that verse. The "all" are all they whom the Father
gave to the Son, and no others.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[rogerg]

There is nothing in 1 Tim 2:4 or 2 Pet 3:9 about "all who the Father has given to Jesus."

Yeah, but the Bible directs us to consider other verses to come to correct understanding - no verse stands alone

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[VARob]

You didn't consider the other like verses as the Bible tells us to in order to understand that verse. The "all" are all they whom the Father
gave to the Son, and no others.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You take two occurrences of the word "all" that are a couple hundred pages apart and insist they're the same?

God gives to Jesus people who believe, something anyone can choose to do.

 

[rogerg]

You take two occurrences of the word "all" that are a couple hundred pages apart and insist they're the same?

God gives to Jesus people who believe, something anyone can choose to do.

No read the verses - can anyone besides those the Father gave to the Son come to the Son? Nope - only those.
And no other than those will therefore be saved.

 

[Cameron143]

There is nothing in 1 Tim 2:4 or 2 Pet 3:9 about "all who the Father has given to Jesus."

There is nothing stating explicitly the trinity either. The word trinity isn't in the bible. But you believe in it because the whole of scripture reveals it. In like manner, as I look at the whole of scripture, this is what I believe it teaches.
You have done the same as I and reached a different conclusion.
I'm okay with that.

 

[rogerg]

God gives to Jesus people who believe, something anyone can choose to do.

No. No one can believe unless the Father first draws him and only those that He draws are saved.


[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day - whoever are drawn are raised on the last day.

 

[VARob]

There is nothing stating explicitly the trinity either. The word trinity isn't in the bible. But you believe in it because the whole of scripture reveals it.

Another topic for another thread. But don't assume too much.

In like manner, as I look at the whole of scripture, this is what I believe it teaches.
You have done the same as I and reached a different conclusion.
I'm okay with that.

Does the truth matter?

 

[VARob]

No. No one can believe unless the Father first draws him and only those that He draws are saved.


[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day - whoever are drawn are raised on the last day.

God is drawing everyone. He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they can live (Eze 33:11). God gives to Jesus those who decide to believe.

 

[rogerg]

God is drawing everyone. He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they can live (Eze 33:11). God gives to Jesus those who decide to believe.

If that's true, then everyone MUST be saved. Is that what you believe?
The verses says Christ will raise them on the last day

 

[John146]

God is drawing everyone. He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they can live (Eze 33:11). God gives to Jesus those who decide to believe.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[John146]

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And yet…

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[rogerg]

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one can see until born again.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[rogerg]

And yet…

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus is talking to Thomas about seeing Him in the physical realm, not spiritual, but those that don't see in the physical and believe are blessed. You left out several important verses for context.

[Jhn 20:27-29 KJV]
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.