Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

None of those verses deny the deity of Christ. As I said in an earlier post, you obviously don't understand the dual nature of Christ if you think verses like those deny his deity. Jesus had to partake of both natures, God and man, in order to be the only mediator between God and man. It's like Job said:

Job 9

32For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. 33Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Jesus Christ is the only daysman or mediator between God and men who can rightly lay his hand upon both parties because he is the only one who is a partaker of both natures.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

VARob said:

Who did Jesus Christ say the only true God is?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [his Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What did Paul say?

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who did Jesus Christ say he was, and who did he learn from?

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Who did Peter say Jesus Christ was, and who was the power behind the miracles Jesus did?

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Who was the power behind the works that Jesus Christ did?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Sin came into the world by one man (Adam). Who is the gift of grace by?

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Who is the mediator between God and men?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Where does the Bible say, suggest, or allude that God is a Trinity, triune, or three in one?

...no scripture... (unless you're thinking of 1 John 5:7, which even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge is not authentic)

...just some things to think about. If this post gets me banned, so be it.

Yup fully man, fully God.

Don't leave out the other thousand verses that demonstrate His deity.

VARob · Feb 4, 2023

posthuman said:

I am very familiar with that belief. I just don't see it in the Bible.

I love God, I love the Lord Jesus Christ, I love the Bible, and talking about the Bible. I participate in threads here as I am led. I am very familiar with the rules of this forum, and what the owner considers heresy.

It's too bad that it's not possible to discuss things openly.

cv5 · Feb 4, 2023

posthuman said:

It must have taken quite a while to find that one bro......

cv5 · Feb 4, 2023

VARob said:

Who did Jesus Christ say the only true God is?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [his Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What did Paul say?

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who did Jesus Christ say he was, and who did he learn from?

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Who did Peter say Jesus Christ was, and who was the power behind the miracles Jesus did?

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Who was the power behind the works that Jesus Christ did?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Sin came into the world by one man (Adam). Who is the gift of grace by?

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Who is the mediator between God and men?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Where does the Bible say, suggest, or allude that God is a Trinity, triune, or three in one?

...no scripture... (unless you're thinking of 1 John 5:7, which even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge is not authentic)

...just some things to think about. If this post gets me banned, so be it.

Soooo.......throw the doctrine of the Trinity in the dumpster fire?
Is that your point?

HeIsHere · Feb 4, 2023

VARob said:

Well if you do not feel comfortable answering that is fine, but are you saying the dual nature of Christ is not evident in scripture?
Am I reading it right, so then Jesus was not God?

I think it so evident when asserts His divinity and when He asserts that he is also human.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

Believers should base their beliefs on what is written. I think that’s the most sound approach. They often said, “thus it is written…” as supporting evidence/proof to justify the why.

Never a “thus, it is not written…” because claiming authority on negative ground, something that lacks evidence, can be impossible, if not very difficult, to supply burden of proof for.

That’s why we take all information into account and consider all of the evidences. When we claim the non-existence or exclusion of something as authoritative it basically makes any claim as equally valid as any other claim but also equally as dismissible.

“The Bible didn’t deny it so it either is or possibly is true” is a slippery slope.

And with our precious faith and reverence for God I think it’s responsible to only go strictly with what the Bible says. Where we don’t know, just say we don’t know.

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

That's not what I was attempting to convey to you at all.

For example, you quoted (or requoted) verses that were dealing specifically with Christ's humanity, but there are equally many verses, and by the same authors, that deal with his divinity. In fact, I quoted one from 1 Timothy which states, in relation to Jesus, that God was manifest in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The real slippery slope is when one quotes only the verses which support his or her opinion while simultaneously ignoring all of the ones which refute it. In this case, BOTH positions are correct in that Christ is BOTH God and man. Again, he has to be in order to be the only mediator between God and men.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

That's not what I was attempting to convey to you at all.

For example, you quoted (or requoted) verses that were dealing specifically with Christ's humanity, but there are equally many verses, and by the same authors, that deal with his divinity. In fact, I quoted one from 1 Timothy which states, in relation to Jesus, that God was manifest in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The real slippery slope is when one quotes only the verses which support his or her opinion while simultaneously ignoring all of the ones which refute it. In this case, BOTH positions are correct in that Christ is BOTH God and man. Again, he has to be in order to be the only mediator between God and men.

Alright. God was manifest in the flesh. What does that mean to you exactly since God isn't made of flesh?

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

Simply put, it's referring to Jesus' incarnation when the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

What do you do with Jesus being Immanuel/Emmanuel or God with us?

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

Okay. What I would do is look more. My thinking would go like this. God manifested in the flesh. God isn't flesh, but this is talking about Jesus. What's happening. Then I would read the gospel.

Is this God manifesting in the flesh?

John 14
10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

But does that say Jesus is God if Jesus said this shortly after? Does that mean we are God if we can do greater things than Jesus?

John 14
12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So what's the conclusion here?

I'll try to answer that later.

HeIsHere · Feb 4, 2023

VARob said:

Who did Jesus Christ say the only true God is?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [his Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What did Paul say?

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who did Jesus Christ say he was, and who did he learn from?

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Who did Peter say Jesus Christ was, and who was the power behind the miracles Jesus did?

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Who was the power behind the works that Jesus Christ did?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Sin came into the world by one man (Adam). Who is the gift of grace by?

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Who is the mediator between God and men?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Where does the Bible say, suggest, or allude that God is a Trinity, triune, or three in one?

...no scripture... (unless you're thinking of 1 John 5:7, which even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge is not authentic)

...just some things to think about. If this post gets me banned, so be it.

I just want to say one can believe that Christ Jesus is Emmanuel (God with Us) and not embrace the classical trinity view.
I have friends who have this view.

They believe that Jesus always was and always will be God.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are titles as opposed to three distinct persons.

I have not really read up on this view but I feel that this is not heretical. imho.

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

The correct conclusion is that both Jesus and the Father are God, and they both manifested in the flesh.

The verse that I alluded to in my previous response was this one:

John 1

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This Word that was made flesh is speaking specifically about Jesus, and we're told earlier, in this same chapter of John's gospel, that the Word was both with God and was God.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Contextually, Jesus is the Word who was with God, or with the one that we call God the Father, AND he was God. In fact, he's the God in Genesis chapter 1 who created everything, even as John stated here. Jesus is called the Word elsewhere in John's writings as well.

1 John 1

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

1 John 5

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Revelation 19

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

If you put these verses together, then you should easily be able to see that Jesus is the Word who is God and who was manifested in the flesh in John 1:14. In this sense, God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16) in that Jesus himself is God.

At the same time, and to your point, it could rightly be said that God the Father was manifested in the flesh in that Jesus, in his humanity, relied on his Father in him who was doing the works that he did.

Again, it's not an either/or situation. Jesus is BOTH God and man. As God, Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. As a man, God the Father was manifested in the flesh in Jesus' humanity.

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

@Runningman

Let me try this from another angle.

Isaiah 42

8I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Here, the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah plainly states that he will not give his glory to another.

Compare that to Jesus' prayer here:

John 17

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

You requoted verse 3 earlier today, but what about verse 5? In other words, what about where Jesus prayed for the Father to glorify him with the glory that he had with him before the world was? Remember, we just read that the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah will not give his glory to another, so how could Jesus have had glory with the Father before the world was unless he was the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah as well?

By questioning Christ's divinity, you're actually diminishing Christ's sacrifice on our behalves. In other words, before his incarnation, Jesus was God, and not man. Since his incarnation, Jesus is both God and man, and the man part is very important. Seeing how a man, Adam. lost everything through his disobedience, Christ had to regain it all as a man by his obedience. The one who was the Creator has now been made heir of all things as both God and man, and has been restored to the glory that he once had with the Father before the world was as both God and man. This is extremely important because we can only become joint-heirs with Christ because he has been made an heir, in his humanity, or as a man, himself. Jesus, who was once only fully God, has now been made fully man as well, and he will remain in a place of willful subjection to his Father throughout all of eternity because this was what was required in order for him to redeem us and make us, as humans ourselves, joint-heirs with him. Again, God became both God and man, and the man part is what saves us.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

Great. Then you just need to show that we can’t do what Jesus does/did.

Humans in general are made in God’s image. In that sense, God is manifest on everyone’s flesh.

The works Jesus did were because of his Father inside him doing the work. Jesus said we can do greater works than what he did.

We can be born again, that is born from above, in that sense God can manifest in our flesh.

Jesus obeyed his Father to the death. We can obey the Father to the death.

Jesus was resurrected and went to heaven. We can be resurrected and go to heaven.

Do you see why the Bible (depending on which translation one reads) doesn’t typically refer to Jesus as God and when it does it doesn’t it isn’t even irrefutable?

For example, I think we talked about Hebrews 1:8,9 when it was referring to the Son as a God when the person it was talking about was anointed above his companions because he loved righteousness and hated wickedness. And it said God has a God. If we love righteousness and hate wickedness then we, too, can be blessed by God.

I can’t think of anything else, but see my point?

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

I'm sorry, but you lost me.

Why would I need to show that we can't do what Jesus did when we can?

Again, it's not an either/or type of situation. In other words, we can do the same works that Jesus did because if we've truly been born again, then God dwells in us in the same way that he dwelt in Jesus in his humanity. You really need to get a revelation of the dual nature of Christ. Once you get that, there's no more confusion or disharmony in the scriptures.

You and I didn't have that discussion from Hebrews 1:8-9, so you must have me confused with somebody else here. Does Prince Charming post here? I get mistaken for him a lot.

HeIsHere · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

Good thing there are an infinite number of angles, maybe you will find the right one!

HeIsHere · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

I kinda doubt that.

You think you can fulfill the law perfectly?

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

HeIsHere said:

To be fair, this whole dual nature of Christ thing has been confusing people for many, many years, so I'm certainly willing to cut him, or anybody else, a lot of slack as long as the conversation remains open and honest.

HeIsHere · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

I admire your tenacity. I agree.

I believed Jesus was God as young child, however, when I understood the dual nature and how Jesus spoke differently to assert one or the other then I really understood scripture.

Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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