Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

Sipsey · Feb 4, 2023

An eel lacks the lubricity of this one.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

you're off the rails dude.
you might want to consider why God has sent all these people to try to let you know that.

John 1:14-15

And the Word became flesh
- "became" -- not 'created flesh' -- but became flesh.
and dwelt among us,
- who dwelt among us? the Word
  - it makes no sense whatsoever to pretend this says 'yet another human was created and lived on earth' -- see the rest of the chapter. in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the God was the Word. note that it doesn't say 'in the beginning God spoke words, and God's spoken words were in His vicinity, and what God said was God' -- but that's what you're trying to change it into.
and we beheld His glory,
- whose glory? the Word's glory. that's still the grammatical subject here. no way around it.
  - oh did we behold the glory of something God said? no.
  - oh did we behold the glory of just another ordinary human? no.
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
- if you were correct and John 1 is just describing the way literally everyone on earth has ever been created, 'as of the only begotten' is nonsensical.
John bore witness of Him
- who did John bear witness of? literally every human? of Adam? no.
- subject = The Word. John bore witness of The Word that became flesh i.e. was not originally flesh & who preexisted becoming flesh.
and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said,
- who? The Word. that's still the subject.
'He who comes after me is preferred before me,
- oh! well we know this saying. John said it of Jesus.
- ergo Jesus is the Word.
for He was before me.'"
- John is physically older than Jesus -- but says Jesus was before him.
- therefore John is explicitly saying Jesus, the Word, existed before John did
- to wit, Jesus, unlike any other human, was existing before He became flesh. as He Himself said over and over, He is from above. He was sent to earth. He came to earth. He is not 'merely human'

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

cv5 said:

seeing that he's also pleased with himself about it i think this gif may be a little more appropriate

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

notonmywatch said:

It depends which Bible you read. Different Bibles are translated from different texts and they don't all teach the same things.

For example, here's a verse from the NIV and KJV.

Do you see the massive difference between these two? Does this alarm you at all that different Bible's teach difference things?

NIV
John 1
18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

KJV
John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins

(John 8:24)

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

whether Christ is divine or not isn't a matter of which English translation you happen to be reading.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

posthuman said:

The word of God being authoritative for what we should believe, it absolutely does matter tremendously.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

translational differences do not have bearing on who Christ actually is.

there is only one Truth.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

posthuman said:

That's not what John 8:24 says.

John 8:25
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Then who did Jesus say he is from the beginning? Time to rewind and see what he said about himself.

Read the previous chapters. Jesus identified himself as the Son of God and the Messiah, the Christ. That's what Jesus said to believe and I believe that.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

you know you can keep ducking directly answering the question but i think you've already made it abundantly clear to everyone that you reject the divinity of Christ. if you don't i have no idea why you would refuse to answer.

we are not gathered here in unity in the Spirit praying for you and trying to reason with you because we are trying to get you kicked out of the forum.
we are here doing these things because we're trying to witness to you the gospel, so that you can come to knowledge of Him, be saved, and know that you are.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

posthuman said:

I don't reject the divinity of Christ. I already said that. How conversations work is we take turns asking questions and answering questions. I asked questions, don't get answers in turn, then I don't answer questions. See how that works?

That's what everyone else is doing, too, but when I do it people press me. Why?

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

it is exactly what John 8:24 says.
quoting the next verse doesn't change what 8:24 says.

Runningman said:

Jesus has been talking to Israel long before John 2. John 1, as i've already demonstrated, makes that 100% clear.

so what does He who is the Ancient of Days mean when He says 'the beginning' ?
rewind to Exodus 3 when Moses met Him.

"tell them I AM sent you"

rewind to Genesis 28, when Jacob, called Israel, first met Him.

Behold! A ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And behold! The LORD stood above it and said:

“I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac!"

then look back at John 1:51

He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

that ladder is Jesus Christ. the ladder is the I AM. the ladder is the LORD.

precious dude.
until you believe Jesus Christ is Who He said He is, and that the entire Bible is testifying of Him,
you are never going to understand what you are reading.

that is why we are all here talking to you, entertaining your replies, and praying for you daily.
that is why we are all here in agreement trying to explain to you that it is a heck of a lot more important to help you understand who Jesus is than to quibble over whether we can trust God to save us or not.
the answer to that question rests completely on Who it is that we have put our trust in -- so if you don't know Him, how can you possibly know whether you can trust Him?

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

Sipsey said:

Join the party of dehumanizing me. Comparing me to an eel and a dumpster fire like the others. I can do that, too, but I always restrain myself. I believe that you deserve the dignity as God's creation to be treated with respect and love.

If you talk poorly about people who are made in God's image then how can you bless God with the same mouth, without hypocrisy?

James 3
9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

so Who is He?

there is only one God -- only One divine.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

posthuman said:

I’m sticking with the answer revealed from the Father in heaven:

Matthew 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

who do you say Jesus is?

VARob · Feb 4, 2023

Who did Jesus Christ say the only true God is?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [his Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What did Paul say?

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who did Jesus Christ say he was, and who did he learn from?

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Who did Peter say Jesus Christ was, and who was the power behind the miracles Jesus did?

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Who was the power behind the works that Jesus Christ did?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Sin came into the world by one man (Adam). Who is the gift of grace by?

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Who is the mediator between God and men?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Where does the Bible say, suggest, or allude that God is a Trinity, triune, or three in one?

...no scripture... (unless you're thinking of 1 John 5:7, which even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge is not authentic)

...just some things to think about. If this post gets me banned, so be it.

Runningman · Feb 4, 2023

VARob said:

Who did Jesus Christ say the only true God is?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [his Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What did Paul say?

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who did Jesus Christ say he was, and who did he learn from?

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Who did Peter say Jesus Christ was, and who was the power behind the miracles Jesus did?

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Who was the power behind the works that Jesus Christ did?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Sin came into the world by one man (Adam). Who is the gift of grace by?

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Who is the mediator between God and men?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Where does the Bible say, suggest, or allude that God is a Trinity, triune, or three in one?

...no scripture... (unless you're thinking of 1 John 5:7, which even many Trinitarian scholars acknowledge is not authentic)

...just some things to think about. If this post gets me banned, so be it.

How dare you quote those verses

. Now they’re going to pray for you one moment, then compare you to an eel or a dumpster fire the next.

God bless you, brother.

VARob · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

There are other forums that aren't so restricted by "orthodoxy." Just sayin... I can't mention them here because that's another rule, where if you break it you're subject to being banned.

notonmywatch · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

Okay. That's a valid response, and I think that it would fall under the answer of "I don't know", so I'll continue on in our conversation.

Runningman said:

Yes, I see that massive difference, and yes, it has long alarmed me that different Bibles teach different things. I've personally conducted extensive research/study on the whole underlying texts and translations issues for many, many years, and here's a short description of what I've personally concluded.

The KJV, which is the version that I use, is by far the best English translation where the New Testament is concerned, Having said that, as I've recently said on some thread here, it is by no means a perfect translation. There are some horrific mistranslations in the New Testament, and some of the other newer versions are actually better translated into English in several instances in the New Testament than the KJV is. When it comes to the KJV and the Old Testament, it was translated from the Hebrew Masoretic text into English, and it is beyond obvious that the New Testament writers, and Jesus himself, often quoted from the Greek Septuagint, and not from the Hebrew Masoretic text where the Old Testament is concerned. With that being the case, one has to really do their homework in order to determine what the Bible actually says.

When it comes to the newer versions, I am beyond fully convinced that they have been translated into English from deliberately corrupted underlying texts in many places. Again, with that being said, there are still several instances in the New Testament where they are better translated into English than the KJV of the Bible is.

Anyway, in the verse that you quoted, ironically, I believe that the KJV is the correct translation. I say ironically because the NIV is notorious for removing portions of verses or greatly mistranslating verses which testify of the divinity of Christ.

Here is an example of what I mean:

https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/3-16.htm

New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

King James Bible
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

posthuman · Feb 4, 2023

Runningman said:

You already know that.
I openly declare it over and over and over.
The Son of Man is the Son of God
Thr Son is God even as the Father is God
There is only one God

Christ Jesus is God and was never not God
Christ Jesus is a man
God sent Himself, the Son, the Word, Who humbled Himself taking on the form of a servant, even a man, and dwelt among us.

Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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