Justified/Saved by Faith & Faith Alone

[Komentaja]

Is it really about over thinking? Truth stands up to questions and examination.

Or maybe in actuality James is not addressing "empty professors" a label he would not have even known.
This letter is written prior to the Pauline letters.

There were no "false professors" in this group, why would Jews want to align themselves with a group who is being persecuted?

Because this is not what "dead faith" means.
Faith is faith. A dead faith is a faith not being used. They are saved. Full stop.

You heard it here firs..... second actually, i've heard Steven Anderson that DEAD FAITH SAVES. Wow.

 

[Cameron143]

Which is why I think the "sola fide" idea is just so ridicilous. ALL the reformers who believed in Sola Fide and invented the phrase also believed that " living faith is never alone" because thats what dozens maybe hundreds of verses teach.

Therefore, why even call it faith alone? if "real faith" is never alone? I'll tell you why, because we must be different from the catholics so lets do it like this, gonna be real catchy.

The difference is a salvation based on works and a salvation that engenders works.
On finds works a necessary part of salvation. The other finds works as a resultant accompaniment.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Faith alone is the essential ingredient; it alone is indispensable. The reformers didn't just make it up, it's what the Bible teaches.

 

[Inquisitor]

Where does Paul talk about mere faith?

If your interested, Paul concentrates on 'faith' throughout Romans and Galatians.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith.

The primary doctrine of Christianity was clearly stated by Paul below.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If you can read Ephesians two without saying, "but what about this or that", then you understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Inquisitor]

Which is why I think the "sola fide" idea is just so ridicilous. ALL the reformers who believed in Sola Fide and invented the phrase also believed that " living faith is never alone" because thats what dozens maybe hundreds of verses teach.

Therefore, why even call it faith alone? if "real faith" is never alone? I'll tell you why, because we must be different from the catholics so lets do it like this, gonna be real catchy.

The fundamental doctrine of Christianity is this, Christ has reconciled us to God!

Not Jesus plus our works have reconciled us to God, that is heresy.

We can only ever be saved by God's grace through faith, and that gift of salvation does not come from us.

Righteousness is received as a free gift from Jesus. We have no righteousness of our own and righteousness cannot be generated by us.

Even mature Christians are sinners, even mature Christians are battling against the desires of the flesh. No one on earth is righteous nor can they be.

Jesus Christ is the alpha and the omega of all Christian doctrine!

 

[Inquisitor]

Faith alone is the essential ingredient; it alone is indispensable. The reformers didn't just make it up, it's what the Bible teaches.

Probably better to say "by grace through faith", a safer shorter form of the gospel.

 

[Inquisitor]

Not.
Works are the evidence, not the precipitator.


We live by faith, not by works. All things hinge on faith.
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." - Hebrews 10:38


The Spirit is a gentleman and will not abide where not wanted and welcomed.


No, but it may be appropriate to express concern.

Good reply.
An extremely important comment.

Not.
Works are the evidence, not the precipitator.

According to James.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Anyone want to perfect your faith, then follow a path of Christian works.

 

[FlyingDove]

Not exactly. A gift is just something given to someone without payment.

You doing what you signed up for in the New Covenant (yes there is a literal covenant and there are conditions) is not doing anything beyond the call of duty and reasonable service. You work, God reaps the glory, and you’re entitled to no pay, but gifts and rewards are many. They often referred to it as being a “slave” of righteousness.

You seek God’s glory, serve Him, and there are rewards and gifts.

It being a gift, it isn’t something you’re entitled to. Make more sense that way?

1st, If you work for it, it isn't a gift.

Rom 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(MY NOTE: Justification/Righteousness/Salvation/Eternal Life are gifts given via Faith, Not works)

2ndly, No place have I claimed or posted, that a believer shouldn't serve the Lord or that salvation is an entitlement. Post claims its a free gift.

Holy Spirit - A gift given thru faith: Acts 10:44-45, 11:17

Eternal Life - A gift given thru faith: Rom 6:23, Jn 3:36. 5:24, 6:47

Righteousness - A gift given thru faith: Rom 3:24 4:3 & 5, 5:17-18

Grace - A gift given thru faith: Rom 3:24, 5:15, Eph 2:8-9

Justification - A gift given thru faith: Rom 3:28, 4:5, 5:1

After the gifts of grace/righteousness/justification/salvation/eternal life are given by the Lord. All solely based on Faith placed in/on the merits/work of His sin atoning death & resurrection. All/any work done serving the Lord will receive a payment/reward (1 Cor 3:8-15). Even a drink of water given in His name (Matt 10:42) will receive a reward.

 

[Runningman]

1st, If you work for it, it isn't a gift.

Rom 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(MY NOTE: Justification/Righteousness/Salvation/Eternal Life are gifts given via Faith, Not works)

2ndly, No place have I claimed or posted, that a believer shouldn't serve the Lord or that salvation is an entitlement. Post claims its a free gift.

Holy Spirit - A gift given thru faith: Acts 10:44-45, 11:17

Eternal Life - A gift given thru faith: Rom 6:23, Jn 3:36. 5:24, 6:47

Righteousness - A gift given thru faith: Rom 3:24 4:3 & 5, 5:17-18

Grace - A gift given thru faith: Rom 3:24, 5:15, Eph 2:8-9

Justification - A gift given thru faith: Rom 3:28, 4:5, 5:1

After the gifts of grace/righteousness/justification/salvation/eternal life are given by the Lord. All solely based on Faith placed in/on the merits/work of His sin atoning death & resurrection. All/any work done serving the Lord will receive a payment/reward (1 Cor 3:8-15). Even a drink of water given in His name (Matt 10:42) will receive a reward.

I think it just highlights what man’s motivation is versus what God’s motivation is.

People think they don’t need to work because they believe the premise for what Jesus did was just to bring us salvation.

The actual premise for what Jesus did is to bring God glory. There’s salvation as well, but it’s not the main purpose, the main purpose is being created for good works so you can serve God with a clear conscience, effectively.

We work for free to give God glory and He saves us because He said He would. Salvation is free, but you aren’t working for salvation. You’re working for God because that’s supposed to be your job.

1 Corinthians 10
31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

1 John 3
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

 

[wattie]

Then why did James ask if that faith could save them if they were already saved?

James was saying their faith without works is alone. Not never there or lost.

Again.. all the examples..

Abraham.. his act in being prepared to offer up his son Isaac was justified in terms of a right act. It wasn't to do with eternal salvation.

Abraham believed God and was converted before offering up his son Isaac.

Rehab already had the faith to hide the people she did.

Paul says that Abraham was not justified by works.. James says he was.

Contradiction? No. James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.

Paul... saving faith. Nothing to do with works.

James ... what people do as acts of service showing the faith they already have. Responding to already have been given salvation.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Context shows different subjects.

Last thing..

The way if salvation had not changed from OT to NT. People were converted before the Holy Spirit became administrator of His churches. The disciples were most surely converted souls (aside from Judas)

What had changed is the OT system of service had failed. The offering of sacrifices had failed as a system.

Jesus didn't bring a new way of salvation but undid the chains put on people by the OT system of service.

They thought they were made righteous by their works, but it was never the case. Their pride in themselves was bought to nought.

 

[HeIsHere]

lol. So your telling me I can believe in jesus. yet have absolutely no faith in him, and I will be saved??

I asked where does scripture speak about mental assent or mere belief?

 

[HeIsHere]

every book is written to believes. but also has warnings in case there are people there who are not genuin believers.

Does your pastor give the gospel? Why would he, if he is preaching a message to believers.. "Brothers and sisters. today we will talk about...."

Let's just stick to hermeneutics, noy the modern day church. Where is the Gospel preached in the book of James?

 

[HeIsHere]

James was saying their faith without works is alone. Not never there or lost.

Again.. all the examples..

Abraham.. his act in being prepared to offer up his son Isaac was justified in terms of a right act. It wasn't to do with eternal salvation.

Abraham believed God and was converted before offering up his son Isaac.

Rehab already had the faith to hide the people she did.

Paul says that Abraham was not justified by works.. James says he was.

Contradiction? No. James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.

Paul... saving faith. Nothing to do with works.

James ... what people do as acts of service showing the faith they already have. Responding to already have been given salvation.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Context shows different subjects.

Last thing..

The way if salvation had not changed from OT to NT. People were converted before the Holy Spirit became administrator of His churches. The disciples were most surely converted souls (aside from Judas)

What had changed is the OT system of service had failed. The offering of sacrifices had failed as a system.

Jesus didn't bring a new way of salvation but undid the chains put on people by the OT system of service.

They thought they were made righteous by their works, but it was never the case. Their pride in themselves was bought to nought.

Amen!

 

[HeIsHere]

you have yet torespond to my post. I will repost again Can you show how the below is wrong?

James states plainly.

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone claims he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

this is the context of what james is saying

1. He does not say they have faith, he said they CLAIMED to have faith
2. He asked the question. can this "claimed" faith save them (salvation is in question)

He is talking to people who claim they have faith, who say they are questions. he is asking them, if you claim you have faith but have no works, can faith really save you??

he then states that CLAIMED faith is dead (no faith at all)

again, a faith that is dead is no faith at all.. It can not save!!

What is the meaning of saved throughout the letter of James, is it spiritual salvation?

Saved can be spiritual, the soul or physical.

The context determines the meaning.

 

[HeIsHere]

again,

Why did James ask them if that faith could save them?

It’s NOT logical. To ask someone if that CLAIMED faith could save them if they were already saved. Is it?

Works save in the here and now, not for eternal salvation.
They are testimony to spiritual salvation. Not proof.

And nowhere does scripture state if no works >>>> not saved.

 

[HeIsHere]

You heard it here firs..... second actually, i've heard Steven Anderson that DEAD FAITH SAVES. Wow.

Words matter, and how they are used matters, and you have twisted my position.

But what is apparent to me is you do not understand what "dead faith" meant according to how James employed the term in his writing to the Jewish brethren.

 

[HeIsHere]

If your interested, Paul concentrates on 'faith' throughout Romans and Galatians.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith.

The primary doctrine of Christianity was clearly stated by Paul below.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If you can read Ephesians two without saying, "but what about this or that", then you understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am always interested in truth and a Gospel that sets me people free, not living in constant anxiety about how much works will prove their salvation.

Yes, salvation is the gift and it not the result of works, therefore works cannot prove salvation since salvation came by grace through faith.

 

[HeIsHere]

The works that are evidence of faith are those born out of the work God does in us. As God works in us, the fruit of the Spirit will be evidenced in our words and actions. There will be a display of love and peace and joy and gentleness and longsuffering as we interact with the world.
The evidence can be seen in the works done; but, more so, it is seen in the manner in which they are performed.

Yes people grow in the Lord hopefully,

That is not my point at all. It is ascribing to scripture something that is not there.
Oyster here has made his point clear, this is what I am arguing is not in scripture.

The concept is that absence of works disproves faith.

This is not in scripture. No one should be adding a concept to scripture that is not there.

This is back loading works onto salvation. This position also denies glorification based on works. Pure logic.

Syllogism:
If ``salvation then always ``works
If ``salvation`` and works`` then ``glorification.``
Not ``works``
Therefore, neither ``salvation`` nor `glorification``

 

[HeIsHere]

Works are the evidence, not the precipitator.

There is BIG leap between saying > works are evidence, to then stating > no works, no salvation.

But beside that, scripture never once makes this assertion.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes people grow in the Lord hopefully,

That is not my point at all. It is ascribing to scripture something that is not there.
Oyster here has made his point clear, this is what I am arguing is not in scripture.



This is not in scripture. No one should be adding a concept to scripture that is not there.

This is back loading works onto salvation. This position also denies glorification based on works. Pure logic.

Syllogism:
If ``salvation then always ``works
If ``salvation`` and works`` then ``glorification.``
Not ``works``
Therefore, neither ``salvation`` nor `glorification``

And my point was that it is inevitable that Christians will grow due to the work of God.