Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Sorry it was unconditional. The Bible says that Abe was put into a deep sleep. Then God Himself, as the fire, walked between the halved animals. This is significant. To have a covenant, two people must pass between the animals. But that didn't happen because God put Abe into a deep sleep. God alone made the covenant and it is unconditional because of that. He reminded Abes descendants of the covenant He made and that it was unconditional and irrevocable. If you don't believe that, look up how covenants were made and then read the passage again. It was unconditional.
In fact Jeremiah 34:18 speaks about covenants “And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make them like the calf that they cut in two and passed between its parts”
You see? The two had to pass between the parts of the animals to make a covenant. Both must keep the covenant. But not in Abes case because God, a symbol of fire, passed through the halved animals Himself.
"When God says in Hosea 1:9
"The import of the language is that the people have so violated the Mosaic covenant that it is as if they are now like the Gentiles―they are not God’s people and God is not their God."
Following this word of judgment, there comes a word of promise: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered” (Hos. 1:10
“I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land” (Lev. 26:42
Ezk. 33 “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that sI cleanse you from all your iniquities, tI will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. 35 And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like uthe garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then vthe nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and wreplanted that which was desolate. xI am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it.
Again, if God will not keep his unconditional promises He made to Abe, then we have no reason to believe He will keep His promises to us, the grafted in.
You may want to check my last post. God made an unconditional covenant with Abe. Only God is responsible to fulfill it. And He will. There is no replacing of the Jews, there is no spiritual Israel. There are Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles are grafted in to the root. We have become joint heirs. That's it, there is no special group that slides in past the Jews. God continually mentioned His unconditional covenant with the Jews. Nothing can break an unconditional covenant, clearly made between God and Abe, not the Gentiles. You and I are Gentiles and are grafted in. The covenant is literal, the land is named, given to a literal people, the Jews. The Jews have been blinded for a time, until the Gentiles (you and I) come in. Then the scales will fall from their eyes, as I gave the verses before, and they will recognize their Messiah. And then He will fulfill the unconditional covenant He made with them. If He does not, that would make God a flat out liar. He would be breaking His Word, going back on His promise. If God does not keep His unconditional promise to the Jews, He can't be trusted to keep His promise to you. Period. That is not the God I serve, the God I serve keeps His promises. Amen.
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Well this is what Romans 11 says...
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
God distinguished Abraham from his family and his kinsmen and made a distinct people out of his descendants. A Gentile who was chosen by God to be the ancestor of the Jewish people.Abraham was called and set apart for God’s purposes. He left his native country and people behind. His descendants would become the great nation of Israel, God’s chosen people
your post is interesting but you did not provide the context for my comment
"well, one issue is man has taken the word "Elect" and made it "selection".
The word Elect is past tense contextually the " Elect " is God choosing Not man's.
man has taken the word " Elect " and man is using it to exclude others from salvation. That is not right Biblically NOW that the Gospel of Christ is applied to all.
eklektos found in Luke 18:7 is "chosen by God," in context to the Jews. also
This applies to Christians also as we see in Romans 8:33
Selection is what you do to buy an animal or piece of fruit you look for the best one.
But before God Elect HE must Call them which is a big misunderstanding of those who hold the Calvinist doctrine.
"Called out ones " became God's Elect they were not selected based on their goodness, or ABILITY BUT SOLEY on God's Need and purpose.
The work of the Cross and the Gospel of Christ calls to all Yet God only knows who will answer.
Romans 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Before the predestination, they had to be called. God who is all-knowing has left man out of the who is and who is not Elect. why?
Because man looks on the outside " Selection" God looks at the heart unknown to man.
" The Elect " in the word of God is not the same as selection.
Called = the elect = the people of God Jews and those who are in Christ. Jews are God's chosen people yet there are Jews today who will not be saved and there are those who are not Jews who are saved through the Blood of Jesus.
"well, one issue is man has taken the word "Elect" and made it "selection".
The word Elect is past tense contextually the " Elect " is God choosing Not man's.
man has taken the word " Elect " and man is using it to exclude others from salvation. That is not right Biblically NOW that the Gospel of Christ is applied to all.
eklektos found in Luke 18:7 is "chosen by God," in context to the Jews. also
- the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
This applies to Christians also as we see in Romans 8:33
Selection is what you do to buy an animal or piece of fruit you look for the best one.
But before God Elect HE must Call them which is a big misunderstanding of those who hold the Calvinist doctrine.
"Called out ones " became God's Elect they were not selected based on their goodness, or ABILITY BUT SOLEY on God's Need and purpose.
The work of the Cross and the Gospel of Christ calls to all Yet God only knows who will answer.
Romans 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Before the predestination, they had to be called. God who is all-knowing has left man out of the who is and who is not Elect. why?
Because man looks on the outside " Selection" God looks at the heart unknown to man.
" The Elect " in the word of God is not the same as selection.
Called = the elect = the people of God Jews and those who are in Christ. Jews are God's chosen people yet there are Jews today who will not be saved and there are those who are not Jews who are saved through the Blood of Jesus.
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Sorry it was unconditional. The Bible says that Abe was put into a deep sleep. Then God Himself, as the fire, walked between the halved animals. This is significant. To have a covenant, two people must pass between the animals. But that didn't happen because God put Abe into a deep sleep. God alone made the covenant and it is unconditional because of that. He reminded Abes descendants of the covenant He made and that it was unconditional and irrevocable. If you don't believe that, look up how covenants were made and then read the passage again. It was unconditional.
In fact Jeremiah 34:18 speaks about covenants “And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make them like the calf that they cut in two and passed between its parts”
You see? The two had to pass between the parts of the animals to make a covenant. Both must keep the covenant. But not in Abes case because God, a symbol of fire, passed through the halved animals Himself.
"When God says in Hosea 1:9
, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God,” he indicates a reversal of the Mosaic covenant in which God promised, “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God”
"The import of the language is that the people have so violated the Mosaic covenant that it is as if they are now like the Gentiles―they are not God’s people and God is not their God."
Following this word of judgment, there comes a word of promise: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered” (Hos. 1:10
)." (Unconditional Covenant kicked in.)
“I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land” (Lev. 26:42
).
Ezk. 33 “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that sI cleanse you from all your iniquities, tI will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. 35 And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like uthe garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then vthe nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and wreplanted that which was desolate. xI am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it.
Again, if God will not keep his unconditional promises He made to Abe, then we have no reason to believe He will keep His promises to us, the grafted in.
In fact Jeremiah 34:18 speaks about covenants “And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make them like the calf that they cut in two and passed between its parts”
You see? The two had to pass between the parts of the animals to make a covenant. Both must keep the covenant. But not in Abes case because God, a symbol of fire, passed through the halved animals Himself.
"When God says in Hosea 1:9
"The import of the language is that the people have so violated the Mosaic covenant that it is as if they are now like the Gentiles―they are not God’s people and God is not their God."
Following this word of judgment, there comes a word of promise: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered” (Hos. 1:10
“I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land” (Lev. 26:42
Ezk. 33 “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that sI cleanse you from all your iniquities, tI will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. 35 And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like uthe garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then vthe nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and wreplanted that which was desolate. xI am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it.
Again, if God will not keep his unconditional promises He made to Abe, then we have no reason to believe He will keep His promises to us, the grafted in.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
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That eternal, unconditional covenant was given to Abraham regarding his spiritual seed, not his physical seed.
The elect are they who are the chosen of God who comprise the seed. If God's everlasting promise to Abraham was to be through his physical seed, then it must unquestionably include all of his physical seed and not just Jacob and Isaac, but it wasn't, it was only through Jacob and Isaac. This then eliminates any possibility of it being to Abraham's physical seed from then until the end of time, otherwise, were that true, there would be a flaw in the Bible and that could not possibly be so. However, if we understand it relative to the intended linage being of Abraham through Jacob and Isaac - then in can only mean a spiritual lineage, and the promise becomes completely consistent and correct.
God did make a non-eternal covenant with Abraham, which was realized when Johsua came into the land, but that covenant was conditional not eternal. So, God made two covenants with Abraham: one eternal, dependent upon God's actions alone; the other, dependent upon Israel's keeping of the covenant's requirements and stipulations which they failed to do.
We often confuse one covenant with the other not recognizing there are two.
God made everything which He had promised to come to pass - not a single part of it failed.
[Rom 9:7,8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
[Jos 23:14 KJV]
14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof.
No, not slides past, it is that the Jews of Israel en-masse, except for the elect, were never promised salvation - eternal life was a part of a different covenant. The spiritual Jews (the elect) were.
God's covenant with earthly Israel was not unconditional. It had two parts: 1) that they would be blessed according to the promise as long as they did not commit spiritual fornication/adultery by following other gods; and 2) penalties would be levied against them if they did. Because God's covenant to Israel was not unconditional, when they violated it, they were punished according to the stipulations, which included (but was not limited to), God's divorce of them.
The elect are they who are the chosen of God who comprise the seed. If God's everlasting promise to Abraham was to be through his physical seed, then it must unquestionably include all of his physical seed and not just Jacob and Isaac, but it wasn't, it was only through Jacob and Isaac. This then eliminates any possibility of it being to Abraham's physical seed from then until the end of time, otherwise, were that true, there would be a flaw in the Bible and that could not possibly be so. However, if we understand it relative to the intended linage being of Abraham through Jacob and Isaac - then in can only mean a spiritual lineage, and the promise becomes completely consistent and correct.
God did make a non-eternal covenant with Abraham, which was realized when Johsua came into the land, but that covenant was conditional not eternal. So, God made two covenants with Abraham: one eternal, dependent upon God's actions alone; the other, dependent upon Israel's keeping of the covenant's requirements and stipulations which they failed to do.
We often confuse one covenant with the other not recognizing there are two.
God made everything which He had promised to come to pass - not a single part of it failed.
[Rom 9:7,8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
[Jos 23:14 KJV]
14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof.
No, not slides past, it is that the Jews of Israel en-masse, except for the elect, were never promised salvation - eternal life was a part of a different covenant. The spiritual Jews (the elect) were.
God's covenant with earthly Israel was not unconditional. It had two parts: 1) that they would be blessed according to the promise as long as they did not commit spiritual fornication/adultery by following other gods; and 2) penalties would be levied against them if they did. Because God's covenant to Israel was not unconditional, when they violated it, they were punished according to the stipulations, which included (but was not limited to), God's divorce of them.
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I was addressing Thereross remark regarding Abraham: ''He is speaking to real people, not spiritual people. His own kin. The Jews.''
Abraham was not a Jew when he was a Gentile. And this is why we are the other sheep not of this fold, the Jews, that Jesus referred to in giving his gift of salvation.
Abraham was not a Jew when he was a Gentile. And this is why we are the other sheep not of this fold, the Jews, that Jesus referred to in giving his gift of salvation.
Ok, let's look at the covenant and what it said.
12 Now mthe Lord said1 to Abram, “Go from your country2 and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 nAnd I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 oI will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and pin you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, y“To your offspring I give3 this land, from zthe river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”..
for all the land that you see I will give pto you and qto your offspring forever.
So no, it's not to a "spiritual seed" the covenant is very much literal and to a real people .
We are talking about the Abrahamic Covenant. No it has not yet come to pass. Israel still does not have all the land the covenant stated. That is why Israel coming back to the land in 48 is so significant.
There is a remnant, Romans 11 says so. The Jews have been blinded for a time. You can read it in black and white.
You are speaking of the Mosaic Covenant. Let's take a look.
"Israel often proved to be an unfaithful spouse, committing spiritual adultery by worshiping false gods and forsaking the Lord. In fact, it was due to idolatry that God spoke this word:
“I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. . . . Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense” (Jeremiah 3:8–10).
God punished Israel, and He illustrates that punishment like this: He “divorced” Israel and sent them away—a reference to the Assyrian invasion, which resulted in Israel’s removal from their homeland (see 2 Kings 17:5–7). Even given the example of Israel’s “divorce,” Judah remained unfaithful, as if daring God to mete out a similar punishment on them."
"Having just cause, God, the faithful Husband, “divorced” Israel, His unfaithful wife. To make matters worse, God had asked, “If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again?” (Jeremiah 3:1). The answer, according to the Mosaic Law, was “no”; a man who had divorced his wife could not later remarry her"
According to God’s metaphor, Israel seems to be in a hopeless situation: she has been divorced by God, and, according to the law, she can never be accepted back.
But then comes a surprising twist: God’s mercy intervenes:
“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever’” (Jeremiah 3:12).
“‘Return, faithless people,’ declares the Lord, ‘for I am your husband. I will choose you . . . and bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14).
God used the shocking illustration of a “divorce” of Israel to stress their guilt before Him. But God never cut Israel off unilaterally for all time. He only asked that they return to Him and experience His goodness. In fact, after God says that He “divorced” Israel, He commands them three times to “return” (Jeremiah 3:11, 14, 23).
The apostle Paul explains, “Did God reject his people? By no means! . . . God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. . . . At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. . . . Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! . . . And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:1–6, 11, 23).
Another illustration of God’s amazing goodness is found in the story of the prophet Hosea. God actually commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). She did not remain faithful to Hosea. Then, while his wife was living in immorality, the Lord commanded Hosea to find her and buy her back. God’s purpose was to show the greatness of His grace: “Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods” (Hosea 3:1).
God gives them a “bill of divorcement,” but then He pleads with them to come back. In Hosea, God pursues and redeems His estranged “wife” and seeks to continue His relationship with her. Both stories provide an unforgettable picture of God’s strong, unending love for His covenant people.
12 Now mthe Lord said1 to Abram, “Go from your country2 and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 nAnd I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 oI will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and pin you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, y“To your offspring I give3 this land, from zthe river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”..
for all the land that you see I will give pto you and qto your offspring forever.
So no, it's not to a "spiritual seed" the covenant is very much literal and to a real people .
We are talking about the Abrahamic Covenant. No it has not yet come to pass. Israel still does not have all the land the covenant stated. That is why Israel coming back to the land in 48 is so significant.
There is a remnant, Romans 11 says so. The Jews have been blinded for a time. You can read it in black and white.
You are speaking of the Mosaic Covenant. Let's take a look.
"Israel often proved to be an unfaithful spouse, committing spiritual adultery by worshiping false gods and forsaking the Lord. In fact, it was due to idolatry that God spoke this word:
“I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. . . . Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense” (Jeremiah 3:8–10).
God punished Israel, and He illustrates that punishment like this: He “divorced” Israel and sent them away—a reference to the Assyrian invasion, which resulted in Israel’s removal from their homeland (see 2 Kings 17:5–7). Even given the example of Israel’s “divorce,” Judah remained unfaithful, as if daring God to mete out a similar punishment on them."
"Having just cause, God, the faithful Husband, “divorced” Israel, His unfaithful wife. To make matters worse, God had asked, “If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again?” (Jeremiah 3:1). The answer, according to the Mosaic Law, was “no”; a man who had divorced his wife could not later remarry her"
According to God’s metaphor, Israel seems to be in a hopeless situation: she has been divorced by God, and, according to the law, she can never be accepted back.
But then comes a surprising twist: God’s mercy intervenes:
“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever’” (Jeremiah 3:12).
“‘Return, faithless people,’ declares the Lord, ‘for I am your husband. I will choose you . . . and bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14).
God used the shocking illustration of a “divorce” of Israel to stress their guilt before Him. But God never cut Israel off unilaterally for all time. He only asked that they return to Him and experience His goodness. In fact, after God says that He “divorced” Israel, He commands them three times to “return” (Jeremiah 3:11, 14, 23).
The apostle Paul explains, “Did God reject his people? By no means! . . . God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. . . . At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. . . . Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! . . . And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:1–6, 11, 23).
Another illustration of God’s amazing goodness is found in the story of the prophet Hosea. God actually commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). She did not remain faithful to Hosea. Then, while his wife was living in immorality, the Lord commanded Hosea to find her and buy her back. God’s purpose was to show the greatness of His grace: “Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods” (Hosea 3:1).
God gives them a “bill of divorcement,” but then He pleads with them to come back. In Hosea, God pursues and redeems His estranged “wife” and seeks to continue His relationship with her. Both stories provide an unforgettable picture of God’s strong, unending love for His covenant people.
God made two covenants with Abraham. One was to his spiritual seed, one to his physical seed. The one you quoted was to his physical seed.
The Mosaic Covenant came because of the following. This is not the eternal one, which is to His spiritual seed.
[Gen 15:18 KJV] 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Didn't you read the verse I posted, this one? What do you think it means when it says the children of the flesh (the physical offspring of Abraham) are not the children of God? The elect are the children of the promise. However, if you disagree, then please explain your interpretation of it.
No sense me going any further and doing more typing at this point until you've done so.
[Rom 9:8 KJV] 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The Mosaic Covenant came because of the following. This is not the eternal one, which is to His spiritual seed.
[Gen 15:18 KJV] 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Didn't you read the verse I posted, this one? What do you think it means when it says the children of the flesh (the physical offspring of Abraham) are not the children of God? The elect are the children of the promise. However, if you disagree, then please explain your interpretation of it.
No sense me going any further and doing more typing at this point until you've done so.
[Rom 9:8 KJV] 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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