Do we need the "spiritual elite?"

[Thusiserve]

I think I get what you are conveying. And I totally agree that anyone saying, "I have the answers that you are not capable of understanding.", are not needed. I believe most of us can use teachers, pastors, fellow christians, Etc, to help us along our walk with Him, and i prefer these helpers to prompt us to seek these truths in scripture. Iron sharpens iron. (And our leaders being humble is key.)

I agree completely it is the Holy Spirit that is the ultimate end to these means, that internalizes His truth in us.

You said: "...He does so according to human understanding and normal rules of speech: syntax, grammar, and context." And i believe He does so in many more ways than this. In ways we cannot possibly or fully comprehend in our limited capacities. I can't wait for the time when I meet Him and will understand ALL that He reveals to us!

 

[ResidentAlien]

You said: "...He does so according to human understanding and normal rules of speech: syntax, grammar, and context." And i believe He does so in many more ways than this. In ways we cannot possibly or fully comprehend in our limited capacities.

When God speaks to us it will always be in line with His revealed word. I agree, He can use many things and situations to teach us but it will never contradict His written word. We don't have to fully comprehend God; He's given us everything we need to know in His word.

 

[Underwhosewings]

(It’s an office/charge)
1 Timothy 3:1,13 KJV
This is a true saying, If a man
desire the office
of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [13] For they that have
used the office of a deacon
well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(It’s a ministry )
Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Titles are for the proud
Tongues (babbling) is a toy, not the Holy Spirit, but that’s a different subject altogether.

 

[Underwhosewings]

When God speaks to us it will always be in line with His revealed word. I agree, He can use many things and situations to teach us but it will never contradict His written word. We don't have to fully comprehend God; He's given us everything we need to know in His word.

Amen.

 

[Thusiserve]

I meant nothing else than that.

 

[Underwhosewings]

And then Paul wrote:

"For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."

He's claiming to have given birth to the Corinthian believers and to Timothy: where there is a son there is necessarily a father. Is Paul walking too close to the cliff edge? How do you understand this?

“Not have many fathers” and using “father” as a title are two separate things.

 

[Dino246]

Titles are for the proud
Tongues (babbling) is a toy, not the Holy Spirit, but that’s a different subject altogether.

Are you trying to cause discord? There is no need to hijack a thread with an unrelated and contentious assertion.

 

[Aaron56]

“Not have many fathers” and using “father” as a title are two separate things.

Indeed. “Father” is not an office like the Roman church practices.

 

[Mii]

The mystery has been revealed by Christ's apostles and prophets. They finished Christ's mission. There is no longer any need for a spiritual elite to reveal the mystery, it's already been revealed, all we have to do is read it and study it.

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints." Colossians 1:24-26

What do you make of Revelation 10:7 ?

Do you think that's in the past?


Pastors are still a thing and should be...so is preaching and teaching.

I'm wondering who you mean as "elite" though...I'm willing to engage and give some of my thoughts but it's difficult to see through everything "completely" and in each group that I think most likely exceeds what is written (goes beyond) a remnant still remains.

 

[MaryM]

When it comes to Bible interpretation, do we need the spiritual elite to explain its hidden meaning or can we each learn objectively by reading and studying? When I say "hidden meaning" I'm referring to those who insist the Bible can only be completely understood by those with special spiritual insight, whose responsibility it is to enlighten the rest of us.

If that's the case, what does this do for objective learning? If the revelation of Jesus Christ is actually a hidden and coded mystery, how can it be called a revelation? Why has the Lord allowed so many Bibles to be put into the hands of so many if His design was for only an elite few to interpret it for the rest of us? Why should we even bother if it's a hopeless mystery?

The Spirit interprets God's word for us but He does so according to human understanding and normal rules of speech: syntax, grammar and context. We all need a hand at times with understanding His word and this is when a good teacher might come in handy; but we shouldn't rely on the spiritual elite. Too often they have ulterior motives.

This is a very good question and I have often wondered. I mainly read alone and though I clarify things using internet or some books, I understand mainly.
Before I begin each session I pray for guidance. It feels like enough, though extra insight is always useful - a group like this one is good for asking others.

 

[ResidentAlien]

What do you make of Revelation 10:7 ?

Do you think that's in the past?


Pastors are still a thing and should be...so is preaching and teaching.

I'm wondering who you mean as "elite" though...I'm willing to engage and give some of my thoughts but it's difficult to see through everything "completely" and in each group that I think most likely exceeds what is written (goes beyond) a remnant still remains.

Revelation 10:7 " . . . but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

The mystery of God was given by way of "His servants the prophets" It's been declared and written. I never said God doesn't still give revelation. I only said that when He does, it doesn't contradict His written word; and His word must be interpreted according to normal rules of grammar. The "elite" don't think they have to observe the proper methods of Biblical interpretation but can disregard them because they're on the inside track; they have a direct line to God which supersedes proper Biblical interpretation.

 

[Underwhosewings]

Acts 4:20 KJV
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

(Here we have the church, what a perfect simple picture)
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
²⁰ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen

(The church cannot function properly without these)
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 KJV
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

“but we shouldn't rely on the spiritual elite. Too often they have ulterior motives.”
Yes, especially these…
Matthew 15:9 KJV
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 4:11 KJV
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given
to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Ephesians 3:9-11 KJV
And to make all men
see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
[11] According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 5:32 KJV
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[mustaphadrink]

When it comes to Bible interpretation, do we need the spiritual elite to explain its hidden meaning or can we each learn objectively by reading and studying? When I say "hidden meaning" I'm referring to those who insist the Bible can only be completely understood by those with special spiritual insight, whose responsibility it is to enlighten the rest of us.

If that's the case, what does this do for objective learning? If the revelation of Jesus Christ is actually a hidden and coded mystery, how can it be called a revelation? Why has the Lord allowed so many Bibles to be put into the hands of so many if His design was for only an elite few to interpret it for the rest of us? Why should we even bother if it's a hopeless mystery?

The Spirit interprets God's word for us but He does so according to human understanding and normal rules of speech: syntax, grammar and context. We all need a hand at times with understanding His word and this is when a good teacher might come in handy; but we shouldn't rely on the spiritual elite. Too often they have ulterior motives.

In Ephesian 4: 11 one of the ministries Jesus gave to the church is that of a teacher. The reason he gave the ministry of a teacher is that the church needs the ministry of a teacher to fulfill its mission. The same as it needs apostles, prophets, evangelists and shepherds.

One of the reasons the church is failing in its mission is due to the fact that we ignore four of the five ministries and rely on a shepherd to do all the ministries. I read that on average 60 pastors every month resign or are sacked. if you are required to be all things to all men I am not surprised.

Personally, I am fed when I pursue the teaching of a recognized teacher in the body of Christ. I am not really interested in those that give homilies and/or one-verse theories.

 

[RichMan]

What do you make of Revelation 10:7 ?

Do you think that's in the past?


Pastors are still a thing and should be...so is preaching and teaching.

I'm wondering who you mean as "elite" though...I'm willing to engage and give some of my thoughts but it's difficult to see through everything "completely" and in each group that I think most likely exceeds what is written (goes beyond) a remnant still remains.

Revelation 10:7 is the announcement of the second coming of Jesus at the last/seventh trump as foretold by His servants and prophets.
At this time all will be revealed to all.
It is in the future at the end of the time of great tribulation that Jesus said would come.
Preaching and teaching is very important for those unlearned and new to the faith and must and will continue until Jesus returns.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We're told to test all things, whether preaching, teaching or prophecy. And how do we test things? Something may sound good and even seem to be a revelation from God. But are we told to trust our instincts or something else?

We should not trust in our instincts, but humble ourselves to trust in the revelation of the Holy Spirit within us. Isaiah 49 - Isaiah was sent by God to reprimand Israel for rebelling against him, saying listen. We are to listen to the words of God, That others present to us and then check them out against the other scriptures to see if they harnonize Without a knowledge of the old testament, we could never understand the teachings of the new testament.

 

[ResidentAlien]

We should not trust in our instincts, but humble ourselves to trust in the revelation of the Holy Spirit within us. Isaiah 49 - Isaiah was sent by God to reprimand Israel for rebelling against him, saying listen. We are to listen to the words of God, That others present to us and then check them out against the other scriptures to see if they harnonize Without a knowledge of the old testament, we could never understand the teachings of the new testament.

I agree we need the Old Testament; it has its proper place. Unfortunately, many of the elite draw on the Old Testament for doctrines that have no place in the body of Christ. They can't find a way to make the New Testament scriptures work so they use irrelevant Old Testament passages. Tithing is a biggie that comes to mind.

 

[RichMan]

All that God will have us know is revealed in the Scripture.
Anytime a person says "God revealed this or that to me", my first response is to ask him to give me the Scripture that revealed it to him.
If they cannot give the Scripture, I immediately dismiss what he said and the one speaking also.

 

[notonmywatch]

The spiritual elite love titles and status. For example: Dr., Best-Selling Author, Rabbi, Teacher, Father, Monsignor (My Lord), Apostle, Prophet and even Pastor. It's very common these days for the pastor of a church to be addressed as "Pastor" so-and-so. Jesus wasn't that keen on titles. He taught that if someone wants to be great they must assume the lowest place.

"But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:5-12

I never knew that "Monsignor" meant "my lord". I just looked it up, and it's true.

I learned something new today.

 

[Mii]

Revelation 10:7 " . . . but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

The mystery of God was given by way of "His servants the prophets" It's been declared and written. I never said God doesn't still give revelation. I only said that when He does, it doesn't contradict His written word; and His word must be interpreted according to normal rules of grammar. The "elite" don't think they have to observe the proper methods of Biblical interpretation but can disregard them because they're on the inside track; they have a direct line to God which supersedes proper Biblical interpretation.

Oh ok. Good to know we are on the same page as far as continued revelation goes. I fully agree that it will NOT contradict what is written.

Can you give a few examples of improper interpretation? Do you mean "I C Jesus" (eisegesis)...or what?

Everyone has been exposed to many different things from people who, at best, still have some learning and dying to themselves to do.


I'm not sure if you are talking about wolves here or Pastors that have some growing up to do so it's hard to engage further. I do care though, it's a point of consternation (and a small amount of bitterness) for me. I'm still figuring it out though and I feel like I just have to (whether I want to or not) work out my own salvation.

 

[ServantoftheMostHigh]

he "elite" don't think they have to observe the proper methods of Biblical interpretation but can disregard them because they're on the inside track; they have a direct line to God which supersedes proper Biblical interpretation.

Yeah, agreed. Then they end up with thousands of followers, which makes others think it must be true and then thousands more follow.
Many Christians don't study the bible in context or without understanding. In fact, they trust what their pastor teaches them or what some "so called inspired Lone ranger Prophet says". Prophets are supposed to be subject to one another and for that matter the whole body of Christ subject to one another also.
Some people are obviously opposing themselves in their attempts to share their conviction or what they feel God is showing them in the word, but I would encourage us to be meek and gracious with the young ones in the faith. Though I would expect more from a bible teacher in which I would see Paul or Jesus holding them to a higher standard.
We must contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and rebuke with all longsuffering. May God give us all the grace to continue til the day of Christ.